Mentoring Moments | EP 15: Ministry and Mental Health with Dr. Fleming Part 2

this is the mentoring moments podcast

with Jensen Franklin and Marcus mikum

well welcome to mentoring moments I’m

Marcus me I’m here with Pastor Jensen

Franklin and we’re here again with Dr

Michelle Fleming uh for those of you who

maybe didn’t see the last episode she’s

a licensed psychologist a consultant

executive coach uh she primarily helps

pastors Christian Business Leaders

corporations all kinds of leadership

stuff phenomenal time we had but we

wanted to keep on going because we

started talking after we stopped the

recording we’re like maybe we need to

deal with some of this and so uh

Michelle welcome thank you Dr Michelle

welcome back again and um yeah we we

kind of we want to deal with some stuff

on on raising children parenting we want

to do deal with that specifically we

also want to talk about the pressures uh

pastors feel when it comes to to the

guilt that they feel because they can’t

be all the things that they’re expected

to be at any given moment moment and I

kind of gave the example of um you know

in in in our church for example I have a

staff of people we have great leaders

great people many times they’re more

qualified than I would be to be in any

given situation they’re actually better

than they’re they’re who I would go to

if I was in someone’s shoe sometimes and

so you of course you delegate you try to

you know make sure that the right people

are addressing the different needs but

you still end up falling short you end

up falling short because maybe the

family was in the church for many years

and they were always there they were

always serving they were always

sacrificing and then they’re in a

situation um that maybe they thought you

should have been there and and you

couldn’t be or you couldn’t be there

consistently or maybe you didn’t know

that you needed to be there in that way

maybe you’ve received partial

information incomplete information or

maybe your mind was somewhere else when

you got maybe you just weren’t there the

hund text or whatever yeah yeah yeah

maybe maybe bilocate yeah yeah maybe

we’re doing what you were just saying we

shouldn’t be doing which is isolating

like we’re like sucking our Thumb in

some Corner we going through our own

crisis we’re we’re Treading Water

ourselves I’ve been in that situation

where people were at were going through

their crisis and I was going through my

crisis too and it was all I could do is

to to keep going to stay alive I mean

yeah it is it is there beat ourselves

up so bad if we lose a family if if

somebody you know you and how do you

tell them well you don’t understand I

got four other crisis going over here I

got a staff situation and I got a family

crisis and I got a preach Sunday right

and you and you’re not you know

reachable because the church has gotten

too big or this and it’s like you know

well a lot of times it was never

really what someone would think you know

I I think at least in AR case and again

this is maybe I’m having my own little

session with you but in our case we

we’re better at care than we’ve ever

been and I was there before I was there

when we had 500 people I was there at a

th000 I know the balls we dropped back

then and I know the ones we drop now we

still miss it but the the level of that

we push ourselves to make sure as as the

congregation gets larger that we’re

staying smaller that we’re

that we’re caring for people in a

greater way than ever before is more and

more our Focus not how do we grow uh in

numerically but how do we make sure that

we’re caring for what we have as we grow

and so um but you feel guilty because

you hear about this family left and and

you just go back in your mind because

you don’t always get the answers you

know so you’re like oh they went through

that sickness and I wonder if we were

there right and I was told that we were

there but so what are you you guilty of

I think you feel guilty because uh you

know you feel like you’ve dropped a ball

or is okay you know um being did we did

we not do what I thought um did they

feel like I for some reason and probably

it was me there that’s usually how a

pastor’s mind goes if he were to be

honest I think most of us take it

personal okay so and because they don’t

say anything you know if they if it’s so

rare yeah

they don’t even come and tell you and

and we’re just kind of airing out like

guess I mean it does hurt you you have

you have feelings it hurts your feelings

you can act Teflon all you want but the

bottom line is is for you know I don’t

let it beat me up like it used to

especially when we were uh many years

ago one thing about old older is you is

you really get to a point where you are

what you are and you do what you do and

I I get it if God’s I don’t want anybody

who is not supposed who is not who

doesn’t want to be here that’s a hard

place to get to because it it may sound

a little callous but especially on my

staff or anything like that life is too

short to go through doing life with

people you don’t even like to be around

yeah I’ve actually heard you say that

before we I have zero tolerance for that

any it’s like and it doesn’t mean that

they have to like what I like it just is

something about the the culture that

they have to fit if everybody feels that

way about somebody you know that they

give off this vibe

that they’re just not part of the team

or something you know especially does

that sound too cold I should probably

shouldn’t say it like that but that’s

what this thing is about it’s it’s the

truth it’s the truth you know that you

need you need to be honest enough to

say not everybody’s going to stay with

us forever and you understand that I

guess yeah but it hurts it hurts you’re

hitting kind of both parts of guilt so I

know kind of last episode I me mentioned

the towns and Leadership program we have

a whole training on guilt for pastors

for leaders really common yeah where can

we find this really common watching

today you can there’s a link on my

website at Dr Michelle fling.com so Dr

Michelle Fleming 1 l and m Michelle 1 M

and Fleming and it’s uh designed by Dr

John Townsen so you can also go to his

website at drtown in.com and it’s called

the Townsen leadership program go one

more time with your sure deal and a

little slow Michelle listening sure d r

Michelle m i c h e l e and then Fleming

with one m f l m iing and you’ll see a

tab there that says TLP which stands for

towns in leadership program and there’s

programs both online and all with

directors across the country and there’s

a whole training on guilt and so uh

there’s couple of Parts happening there

uh one of them is this sense of over

responsibility I am there to rescue I

have to save everyone I have to be

everything to everyone you know um and

realizing uh kind of the limits of who

we are just the physical that’s what we

were talking about before like the

physical limitations of who I am that I

can’t meet that need for every person

and we were mentioning before about kind

of all work is grief work grieving that

I couldn’t be at the hospital with that

family cuz I was elsewhere or going

through my own crises you are not

responsible for how they responded to

that you are not responsible how they

responded to that W yeah I mean that was

their choice but to grieve the fact that

I couldn’t be there cuz I’m I’m I’ve

heard it said you know we are a treasure

of possibilities within an outline of

limitations you know well where’s

where’s the balance you know cuz say a

family they have limitations too and

they chose on their days off to serve at

the church and do a small group and they

sacrifice in all these ways and and and

then here you are you know this is your

job and it came time for maybe you to

sacrifice for them is the way I feel and

and you drop the ball all in some way

but the the thing is is every day every

day I have one guarantee that at the end

of the day I will have disappointed

somebody that’s right every day I will

have not for and many times for someone

that was there for me or for the church

or for the ministry and and it’s just

it’s it’s a suffocating feeling like

will I ever be able

to get there you know no you will never

meet all the needs I mean I kind of

laugh there so what you’re talking about

is reality there is positive reality

that we all know and love and there’s

negative reality so it is facing

negative reality it’s still real I do

think um at the end of the day you will

probably disappoint

someone and leaning against those uh

you’re very open when you said your

codependent you know Tendencies leaning

against taking responsibility for how

they responded and not fragilized them

you know that term like wow if I wasn’t

there they’re going to fall apart you

know that that that means everything to

them that’s seeing them as fragile um

and and there are times in people’s

lives where they are fragile but most

most people you know walking around

today can handle um a disappointment

maybe you’re even teaching them to grow

to say hey accepting the imperfections

in myself and accepting the

imperfections in other people that’s how

we mature spiritually you’re and

emotionally yeah and so like we said

kind of grieving that where in my life

was I taught that I need to keep

everyone happy because we were talking

earlier about the burnout I mean that’s

just a formula for Burnout that’s good

yeah you don’t want to sacrifice

yourself or your family constantly for

um everyone else I would add this it’s a

long-term game that you need to play

meaning

um I don’t feel that Guild as much at

this St age because the church has

learned as we have

grown that I they

know um it’s got to be something really

really really serious if I’m calling

them or show and then and I hate to say

it like that now every once in a while

it’s just I’m I’m I just think of people

and call them but in general they know

they get that but you have to tr train

them don’t blame them train train the

church to know and that my church is so

amazing in that area they are so amazing

they’re shocked when I call them or

they’re shocked when I um show up you

know at at the hospital they’re shocked

and so appreciative and it’s always the

same line I can’t believe you called I

can’t believe you came and you know and

I and and for every one that I that I

have done and get to do I’ve missed

probably 500 you know that I didn’t get

to do and yet the

people I think if you train them does

that make sense there’s a culture in our

church that they that people know I’m a

human being and that they are very

appreciative and and it’s the little

things too though like you can just if

you just write a little note or

handwritten or and it’s not it’s not a a

gimmick it’s it’s from your heart or a

quick phone call just a quick and I’d

say to all the young pastors out there

you never outgrow that stuff especially

I I do you treat everybody the same if

I’m to be honest no um I love them all

the same but there are people who’ve

been with me from day one there are

people who are in leadership roles in

the church that have helped me build

this church and they are a high high

there are people who who who cannot uh

they they don’t they they’re not big

givers they’re not anything like that

they’re not but they have they are

precious people that my family has come

up with and they matter they I know them

I I know them you know I don’t they have

you know you understand what I’m saying

exactly and that kind of stuff is so

important that you follow your own heart

and conscience about like if if there is

somebody that’s been around here for 20

or 30 years or long or even not even

that long 10 years and and I know them

and I hear something about them my my

heart is to pick up that phone it’ll

take me two three I control even how

long because you can always go to I’m

going to pray for you at the end and and

and do it from your heart but it’s

showing people how much you care about

them and little things like that I don’t

if that makes sense I think about that

you never outgrow that you never outgrow

that kind of stuff but you do

outgrow um you know feeling like the

guilt and con and and stuff of not being

there for everything because it’s just

impossible so I think there’s a really

good uh delineation in the Bible between

guilt and uh Godly sorrow this a concept

from uh Bruce narmore that taught at

Biola um I think it’s a second Corin

Ians chapter 7 so the feeling of guilt

isn’t as strong in the Bible as it talks

about Godly sorrow so guilt the focus a

lot of times is on myself it’s about the

past and this critical judge shows up in

my head telling me how I deserve

punishment right so that’s that’s guilt

uh Godly sorrow is more about the impact

on the other person the impact on the

relationship or even you know

chist and it’s about the

future and when the judge shows up it’s

a warm kind judge in your head you know

more of our loving God that shows us

both Mercy not giving us the punishment

we deserve and Grace um and and the

outcome then can be uh repentance if

needed and change and so the change

might be kind of re-educating what

change needs to happen re-educating the

congregation that I can’t be available

to all all people or I need to change my

Approach that makes people believe I’m

there but the shift is more away from

myself and into that place of like

attachment and moving forward and I

think Paul talks about that I love the

story you told in the last uh podcast

about the pastor that you went to his

church and um and and he had a letter

from his six-year-old or something and

I’ll let you tell it but to me

that was one of the most brilliant

things because it said to that whole

congregation and I’ll let you tell it

but again because it’s probably a whole

another audience but you know something

like that lets people know even even

discussing this working it into a sermon

and saying sometimes I feel so guilty I

feel so so guilty that I wasn’t there

for some of you in your darkest hours

when you needed me and you you can turn

it into a a major point in a message of

being vulnerable to to to kind of bring

that stuff out and it actually becomes

very emotional and effective in teaching

a Bible principle that even though I

can’t be there we’re pointing you to

somebody who can be there yeah and and

the body of Christ can be there that

your your small group can be there you

know I think in saying that people get

it then when when you do it in that

context right Absolut I know you know

this but you know it’s a good it’s a

good practical tell that story one more

time sure so we had just moved to

Southern California we were looking to

attend a church and kind of walked in to

a a new church and the pastor was given

a sermon and showed on the screen the

actual letter that his six or

seven-year-old daughter had written that

said Daddy we miss you you are never

around and wherever it is you’re going I

hope you’re happy you know kind of in a

kid’s way in a kind gentle way way you

know not totally understanding what he

was doing and he used that as his

platform to announce that they were

canceling Saturday night services he

could just couldn’t be there and do it

all and and he needed to protect that

one day to be with his family and as you

said my response I think a lot of people

in the congregation was this is the

church I’m going to that’s the man I

want to follow that is open to the

gentle heart of his daughter that will

be vulnerable enough the research shows

that vulnerability builds trust and

people follow follow a pastor they trust

right they and and because if you’re

bulletproof and you’re perfect I

actually can’t relate to you we talked a

little bit about some people may want to

worship you but then that’s not what

you’re going for you know I want to

trust and respect you and that does come

with being open and

vulnerable anything else on that Marcus

that’s really really powerful I I was

you know just I I was thinking about

what you were saying about the um is it

right to lean towards the people that

have been there

and you know I always think about that

scripture of you know Jesus asking where

are the nine he’d heal the healed the 10

lepers and then the one returned and he

asked the question where is the nine so

that’s what we are always asking where

are all those people that we minister to

that we were there I actually heard the

story Brian Houston said this years and

years ago that he was asked I think by

Phil Pringle that uh is that that’s his

name the pastor another Pastor there

Australia to come speak on a Sunday it

was kind of last minute and he went to

his church and he knew PE more people by

their first name basis at his church

than he knew at his own and I think

about that I think all the people that

you seem to get to know the most over

the years they’re not there and you know

their name you know their story and then

you’re looking at people that you don’t

know and you know kind of how it feels

sometimes he’s really expressing a a

deep thing to pastors of of how and

their

wives the emotional um feeling of

Abandonment I guess in some ways that

you take it you do take it personal and

you feel it and you think these are my

friends these are my people they’ll give

meit out and sometimes they don’t and

this isn’t putting our precious people

down we love our churches but but we’re

we are human in that way and I think

he’s really touching on a nerve of

especially when you’re trying to build a

Ministry and you

every person counts and every seat you

want it filled and that’s the goal kind

of you know and I’m hearing part of it

is not getting the feedback you know is

it possible to reach out and say hey I’m

not pressing you to come back but I’m

just wondering what what happened or

what made you feel like you that’s a

really good that’s a really good

question I’ll tell you my experience you

get depressed maybe you can you can you

can say but I I I want to finish that

story Jesus said where is the nine he

did ask ask and it is a normal thing to

wonder where all the

people have left you know but he quickly

just focused on the one that returned or

stayed or was grateful or thankful that

did realize that there were changes that

happened in their life and and I think

it’s appropriate that we because then it

says that that person was made whole

there is something about focusing on the

people that have stayed that are

grateful instead of focusing on all the

people that you failed in some way or

missed it in some way whether was in

their interpretation or whatever but

right but very helpful to people

listening right now they even were

discussing it because this is stuff that

preachers know but they don’t talk about

it because they don’t want anybody to

know that I lost some people yeah no we

have you here so maybe maybe you can you

can you can help with this but I I’m

curious with him so in all my years of

pastoring anytime because a lot of times

you know people they drift and it’s kind

of a slow thing I I don’t I don’t know

if maybe they’re thinking I wonder if

they’ll notice when I’m gone this long I

don’t know if they’re maybe hitting

another church one week and then coming

back to you I don’t know how they’re

doing it I’m iag there’s probably like a

myriad of ways they do it but but

usually when they’re gone when you find

out they’re gone they’re gone and you’ve

already missed it because you didn’t

know or sense or pick up on it or

whatever and it’s too it’s too and and

so in all the years that I’ve done this

um there’s only one couple that I ever

chased that came back and it was

positive H not one time did I ever call

or check in or go find try to explain

hear what they had to say so you kind of

get to that point where if they’re lost

like lost meaning their heart’s broken

they yeah they they’re going through a

failure in life a sickness an addiction

a marital that’s one thing but just

people that just you know I’ve never

been able to go after them and do

anything that would amend it in a way

like a Matthew so my Approach on that is

is if I hear about a family that is left

even if they didn’t notify me and I hear

about it and they were really here and

they really made a a contribution I

can’t say I’ve done this every time but

if I hear about it or or I hear they’re

considering leaving or they’re going

somewhere else I will call them and I

will and usually they will tell me then

and I always from my heart I will

release them I’ll say I I I I I

appreciate what you’ve done for the

church I’ll never forget your labor of

love here and I want you to know the

door is always open and you’ll all if I

can say it with a genuine heart and they

they cuz good people it’s just changed

sometimes and so I’ll say I’ll say the

door is always open I make sure I always

say that and and you know you can always

come here and and be celebrated and

loved because we you genuinely were

there with me through the thick and thin

and I appreciate it that’s a big deal

because many times people Circle back

around you give it a few years it’s

amazing it’s amazing because they find

out that the you know Free Chapel had

some

issues uh and it’s always things that

that they go somewhere else and find out

well this isn’t that you unique you know

that this church has some issues

too very without that feedback it would

be hard to know what to do or what’s

happening you guys are probably aware of

the research that in general churches

are losing people you know the culture

is getting people and and getting this

self-reliant you know I can do

everything myself why do I need a Lord

why do I need submit yeah Church online

exactly so yeah just getting that

feedback as much as possible either from

them them or from people around you in

the staff it’s another important piece

we talk about in leadership development

if if you’re not getting feedback that’s

not good no feedback is is a bad thing

no and when I mean feedback I mean like

this is something that wasn’t done

perfectly you know everyone can have the

rah rah rah but how do you integrate

what we talked about the negative

reality and when you model that like I

am open to hearing that it again changes

the culture and and I have a tendency

sometimes to get on U um very

controversial issues and and even

political things but they’re really not

political to me they’re biblical issues

that that culture has turned into uh

political but I will I will stand on

that and we lose people because of that

a lot I mean that we during the pandemic

I lost hundreds I mean because of my

strong stand for life and things like

that you know I just won’t budge on some

things and it really in my mind is not

political I go with whatever party or

candidate is closest to to what the

scripture says but it it it has created

Havoc over and over and over in the

church for years and I I’m not immune to

that man you know cuz I work but but I I

do listen like I I I’ll when I’ll meet

with the pastors and and some of the

churches are are indifferent um

um locations of course and and so there

is a different uh demographic of people

in those particular locations even the

very culture of those locations would be

maybe more liberal or more whatever

because it’s in that that that

particular uh demographic so I don’t

want to tick people off I don’t want to

you know I I want to it makes me fine

tune and always filter uh what I say

with some with balance I hope but also

what she’s saying is so true to pastors

that are listening is is to get feedback

just to be brave enough yeah to listen

to real feedback like I think about Dr

Rich on my staff you know Dr Rich he

would tell me brutal things at times

about what I said and how that

interpreted into this and this and this

and and I and I may agree with half of

it or third of it or or none of it

but it always puts a a a a a pullback on

the Range just a little bit to check

myself and my motive and make sure I’m

not stepping out into something that I

that I don’t need to this it’s it’s not

a battle that’s worth fighting it’s not

a hill to die

on if that makes sense yeah absolutely

but that feedback really helps me like

yeah it’s part of the truth right it’s

part of like yeah and we we’re not

immune in that situation to missing and

letting our own raw feelings come

through in in such a tough time cultur

culturally it’s um and and even

spiritually to to not uh I mean we’ve

all seen it seen it happen and and you

know we got to be we got to we have to

walk a tight line right there yeah

absolutely I like how you said I stand

on the truth that’s what I I love to

hear when you speak about these topics

that have become controversial but I’m

open to understanding maybe I can soften

this or this came across this way that

was off-putting because that’s not what

you’re trying to do you’re trying to

convert hearts and Minds let me give you

a great example of what we’re I really

feel like what we’re talking about is

going to help people I keep kicking so

we got the war going on in Israel right

now that is so tragic and of course the

terrorists started at Hamas and attacked

and and and I think that’s why I get in

trouble I name and say stuff but it is

what it is is but but here’s the thing

like I have a I have a pastor uh on

staff who is married to a

Palestinian uh beautiful girl and mother

of his children and so I’m pro-israel

I’m pro-israel biblically I know what

the scripture teaches I’m

pro-israel um because you know God’s

gave the land to the people and we can

go on and on and all of that and that’s

another whole podcast that we should

probably do but I’m but that does not

mean that I do not love the Palestinian

people and the and and what this helped

me do is understand uh this pastor’s

wife has

Christian um family in

Gaza there’s only about a thousand

Christians they live they live under

they’re probably better Christians than

I am and you you are because they live

it and it could cost them their life it

costes them to be abandoned by their own

families and culture and every way and

if I’m not careful I can be so strong on

one side that I have no feeling or even

compassion for the other side of even

and and let’s go further the Muslims I

love the Muslims I have friends there I

I’ve done I’ve gone to Israel and taken

trips and gone into Bethlehem and done

you know we do we we know these people

we know the we’ve done business with

these people for 20 30 years and they’re

precious precious people they’re

peaceful they’re many peaceful and I

don’t know if I’m making sense but that

is so important that kind of feedback

and I love that this pastor had the

courage to call me and say would you

talk with me and my wife would you and

Sharice sit down and talk because I came

out very strong WR out of the gate as I

always do on something like that but to

get the counterbalance and even ask

myself we give millions and millions of

dollars to Israel with building a

hospital and this and that over there

but have I done anything for uh

Palestinian people have I done anything

of that of that magnitude no why am I

not doing that it really pricked my

heart of and con in conviction and said

well do you not care about those B

babies and those children and those

people that are hungry and those people

that have needs and you can always make

an excuse as to why but it really opened

my heart I don’t know what’s coming in

the future but I will be very

sensitive to that um you know from now

on and I got a feeling we’ll do

something there yeah I hear you talking

about not casting a label over a whole

group of people which you know we do the

culture does constantly they they you

know there’s a lot on social media that

wants us to all be against each other we

call that in Psychology othering like

they’re other than me they’re different

well no those are families trying to

raise their children and educate and put

food in their mouth and trying to stay

safe and like you said under more more

persecution than we are and in some way

felt so oppressed you know that that

they they have to take this action so

yeah absolutely just kind of getting

that piece of realizing like I don’t

want to cast that net so large and just

turn people into like you know less than

human unless denying the inherent

dignity that they’ve been given yeah I

think the terrorists are are uh you know

if they don’t repent they they get what

they get what they’ve got coming if you

can hurt children and babies but that’s

the that’s the point it’s it’s

terrorists it’s go it’s Hamas and Hamas

is not all the Palestinian people the

many many many of the Palestinian people

would love to have peace if they could

have it probably

yeah so we digress just a bit there

sorry I think well we also want we we we

you know just to help pastors understand

it’s okay to say no it’s okay to yes not

be everything to to everybody you can

try do your best but at the end of the

day and like you said be vulnerable and

open to feedback I really like that the

that letter to to

even have pastors hey you should

probably figure out how to inter this

into stuff consistently to say hey I’m

I’m you know I I’m so sorry I can’t be

more than what I am you know but but

this is the reality we live in yeah and

talking to the impact on the family and

that was another piece that’s so

important for the PKS out there right

the kids that protecting that time and

protecting them from all of those

pressures that you have under of a

pastor I was working with a pastor who

uh went through through a church split

and as you were saying earlier the folks

that left were also his wife’s friends

and his kids friends and the kids were

asking why can’t why we’re not can’t we

hang out with them again or what

happened or the families used to be

friends and it’s it’s a grief process

and as we were saying earlier The Godly

sorrow part is you know okay what’s on

the other side of that what change where

did I contribute where am I not

responsible you know that go you know

kind of going through that process and

shepherding the kids as much as possible

it’s not easy how do we protect our kids

you’re you’re bring you’re going into

something so important so how how do we

protect our kids uh in

general yeah yeah uh and protect them

from what would be the question then um

from being uh hurt I I think I think

it’s a great topic in general concerning

social media concerning um how do we how

do you uh raise kids to today um what

are What in in this culture in this time

and especially if you’re in Ministry

that there’s the added pressure of that

on top of everything else so um can you

give us some guidelines of saying no of

of how to handle social media how much

is too much or anything like that yeah

absolutely and because of the um forward

facing of the pastor the social media is

even more can be damaging to the kids

because you’re a public figure you know

I know you both have probably lived

through that um and to recognize that we

are going through uh kind of the same

thing that the Industrial Revolution did

to culture we’re going through this

digital Revolution so we are now raising

kids that have these devices that we

never had so number one I would say

educate yourself on the impact of what

these devices are doing to children

we’re learning it’s not just what’s on

the screen it’s the screen itself self

it’s the pixels and the changing of the

pixels and it goes in through the

eyeballs and what it does to their

little brains and it is contributing to

a difficulty in terms of concentration

in terms of focus um so limit screen

time there’s uh national standards for

screen time that I think are too much

but at least start with those national

standards and be sure to limit the

content of what they see it shocks me

when people hand their kids this device

that is free access to the internet and

social media uh there’s a big push now

no iPhones until 8th grade I wait till

8th uh what we’ve done with uh my kids I

I have uh 12-year-olds is we basically

gave them a flip phone the only thing it

does is call and text and they can’t put

any contacts on it but it looks like a

regular phone because they want to you

know look cool it will take videos and

pictures you can’t send them anywhere so

it’s just on their phone and they can’t

get any pictures or videos through text

but they still feel you know like

they’re a part of the club which is

important at that age where are those

phones somebody it’s called a gab phone

gabb is what I use and it’s there’s some

things out there called a dumb phone

right so have smart phone it’s a dumb

phone um so wait till 8 to put a phone

in their hand and then waiting till 16

on social media wow 16 before they have

their own account is that possible it is

it is I think if you are strong enough

to be the one that says all families are

different this is how we are going to do

it um if you want to set up an account

on your phone that you and your child

can look at together but you just don’t

hand it to them so you can check

whatever snarky comment somebody made

and make sure you know that your child

is protected from that or you can talk

through it um there’s disturbing images

there’s uh free access to pornography

there’s all sorts of horri

it’s I think it’s irresponsible

parenting just to hand this device over

and the um social media is pushing those

images towards the kids on social media

so for sure wait to eth 16 on social

media backing all the way up a child

under two should never be in front of

any screen particularly because of the

brain development even if it’s Mozart

for infants because of the impact of the

screen itself on their brain development

and the

prerational difficulty attention in

concentrating certainly not all the ADHD

that’s a real diagnosis but the impact

on that um that what happens we’ve

probably seen this is you’re so used to

the immediate distraction that your

brain gets in this hyperaroused mode and

so a teacher standing there talking is

incredibly boring you know you’re not

going to be able to concentrate in

school when you’re used to this

immediate you know gratification um kind

of hitting the like button goes right

into the soul of our little kids they

want to let be like they want to belong

they want to know that’s important um so

protecting them from that and yeah being

the uh Pioneer Family that says no

that’s you know I always like to follow

it up that me and my house are going to

follow the lord you know I remind the

kids of that and this is the way we’re

following the Lord I am protecting your

innocence your Purity I know it’s going

to come you know I know you’re going to

get exposed to that it doesn’t need to

happen to your brain at 12 or 11 or 10

and so um those are just some basic

guidelines good when kids come into our

house um because they all come in a lot

of them and have the phones we um I take

them away sometimes like okay you’re

playing outside like you don’t you know

you don’t need the phone um it it it’s

also this proliferation of the the

selfie culture which is basically look

at me look at me look at me look at me

doing this look at me doing that and

that becomes like that’s that’s not

theological sound theological we’re not

all about ourselves are certainly not

what we look like uh you know we’re here

to kind of serve others and get out of

myself and the culture pushes against

that really strongly um so yeah and

finding other families to do it together

so you’re not the Lone Ranger finding

the other families in your church in

your schools that want to raise their

kids the same way I think it’s powerful

coming from you um as and your medical

background but also your um as a mother

and and and as a as a Believer you you

you’re saying you’re giving permission

to to parents out there it to be

different to make a difference in in in

culture and in our kids and fam’s lives

what about um what other areas do you

see uh just so detrimental to kids now

that are kind of unique to to the times

that we’re living in is uh you mentioned

how how so how many hours a day is there

particular Target that you would

recommend I can tell you what we do on

our house is 30 minutes a day I do think

the American yeah I do think the

American Pediatric Society says or 12

yeah says up to an hour a day at this

age and that’s all screens and there is

a timer because I am too busy to

actually monitor that so you set it up

that their device turns off at that time

um and and and if there’s a special day

or you know they need they can earn

extra time I think I need that oh yeah

another thing I can tell even in my own

mind where if I’m watching my phone too

much I can’t even watch a movie I’ll get

five minutes into the movie and be like

this is taking too long well they’ve

built them to be addictive they built

them to you know they are they are

buying your attention that is what is

being uh commoditized you know monetized

is your attention on the screen and how

long you look at something that’s I mean

I just feels like the I like that thing

you said a while back about the only

other time someone spends that much time

on the other side of glass like visiting

a prisoner yeah is somebody that’s in

prison because because somebody said I

think it’s in if you were a teenager now

by the time you do your lifetime you

will have spent seven full years of your

life behind glass oh my gosh seven full

years so just like you’re doing a prison

sentence of seven years and all they do

is touch like this they don’t really you

know Reach Out And Touch and and they’re

having trouble communicating and Absolut

loneliness is a plague a plague an

absolute plague and the isolation I mean

among teenagers right how can if you’ve

got a teenager and

they’re they’re they are not uh they’re

not social uh meaning you know

physically out running got friends and

having a sports and all those kinds of

things and they’re in this little locked

in world what what are steps that can be

taken that don’t cause World War III and

your family if if you’ve waited too late

to deal with that yeah so a little bit

of World War II might not be bad if it’s

in the if it’s in the service of you

believing you doing what’s right for

your child certainly you know get some

input you don’t want to be doing

anything out of your own anger or

punitive nature towards your child um

but I would encourage parents toay step

into their Authority as the parent your

greatest influencer with your children

is your

relationship so if you’re having

problems kind of um directing and

influencing your children where you’d

like them to be look at what’s going on

in the relationship if they’re spending

that much time in front of the screen

where they need to learn to relate first

is with you maybe it’s we put down the

phones at 7 o’cl Mom and Dad included

and we have dinner and we actually talk

and make eye contact and learn how to

relate to each other

because that’s kind of where you first

learn it we learn to um there’s another

piece there certainly of like accepting

that your kids are different well why um

I did actually work with a pastor who

would ask his teenage kids what do you

believe that you don’t think I believe

anymore like how have your beliefs

changed how have your beliefs changed

and you think I can’t hear it so I want

you to tell me how your and the

conversation wasn’t to change their

beliefs the conversation in that moment

was just I need to know who you are I

need to be interested in who you are as

a person that is the strongest

Foundation you can give to your children

as a protection against basically them

becoming objects in social media about

what you look like or what you have or

this Prestige that we know leads to

Desolation and and uh ultimate you know

distress and anguish so yeah I would

step up be okay making the rules hey God

made rules his rules are to love us for

us to you know out of love to kind of

show us the path um and to kind of bond

with other families willing to do the

same actually I’ll say too I see it on

the other side was just having this

conversation with a neighbor where um

her daughter is an amazing soccer player

and so the club she’s looking at is

inviting her up to the next level of

play which would mean on airplanes on

weekends and they would miss church and

Sunday school and so what I said to her

is you know she doesn’t want her child

to miss out on this opportunity well

here’s the negative reality there’s a

loss on either side side either your

child will not be the best soccer player

she could ever be or you’re going to

lose practicing your faith and her being

involved in youth group I mean it’s one

or the other so which one are you going

to choose so good and she said do you

think I should tell them you know here

are my stipulations I have questions

don’t see what the club’s doing is

they’re approaching the kid hey don’t

you want to do this because they know

the kid’s going to pressure the mom

we’re talking about a an 11-year-old

right yeah and I said no you step in

there and you say you do not approach my

child with with this opportunity I have

lots of questions I can’t travel on

Sundays I mean there’s a way to make it

work but you here’s where it’s at people

is what is your priority and if that

Faith Life and your faith community I

personally think games on Sunday are

insane you know we only do them when we

can go to church I like to keep a

Sabbath it’s kind of hard to do when you

have a game to go to um but so it’s

really stepping in and kind of claiming

this is our space our faith space

because the culture will get your kids

you can talk all day long I’m telling

you it’s got to be more than talk they

got to see you as a parent put a

boundary around our family time and our

faith life so good yeah we put it on our

calendar family time that means we don’t

do date night you know the kids don’t

have friends over those there’s six

other nights a week that we can do that

we are just going to and maybe we watch

a faith filled movie or we play a game

you know but it’s they have to be shown

how do I put the phone down put the

outside world down um because in the end

that’s that’s all I I I we give to each

other that’s all we got is this

relationship between

us you got me on my soap boox a little

bit there tell I like it I love I love

the Practical things you’re giving too

um about you know even even the tough

calls I think are so important um and

and with with preachers kids are there

any tips I know you’ve researched I know

you’ve mentioned the towns and Institute

has

whole uh talks and and uh I think

programs uh to to help parents pastors

you know as parents yeah um are there

any um what are the like the top little

um practical tips that you could give in

in in raising children in a pastor’s

home are there anything things that just

jump out that you know are kind of

universal that every every body is going

to have to deal with if they are in that

world sure so there is a protective

feature when the kids are like let’s say

Elementary age because they’re not that

aware of other people’s perceptions just

developmentally right so it’s a little

easier to protect them from some of the

impact of being a pastor’s kid it’s

right as they go into adolescence uh

they call this developmentally um the

imaginary audience whether you’re a

pastor’s kids or not you think

everyone’s looking at you if you can

remember what it’s like to be Middle

School right so around that 10 11 or 12

I would be extremely careful of any

conversations about well what is that

going to look like what are people going

to think what are they going to say

because they are already struggling with

that in their own mind um and if you and

your wife need to have those

conversations then they’re elsewhere

apart from the kids really um enforcing

the belief that this is who we are as a

family other people might react

differently or other people might think

this you can always come to me you can

always come to me and we can talk about

you know what someone said here or what

someone did this so try to turn the

spotlight off of that imaginary uh

audience and then I would say as

teenagers don’t afraid to be the parent

I have seen I believe we get this

message to abdicate parenting well you

know they want to be independent they

want to be on their own yes of course

they do but I know whose house they’re

going to who talking to what they’re

going to be watching what is happening

there I’m going to call the parents and

find out and so you certainly cannot

control 100% what your kids are exposed

to we’re talking teenagers um or who

they’re exposed to but you can have them

environments that you have knowledge of

what type of environment it is and then

relying on that relationship that when

they do come against that information or

that behavior that you know is you know

how not how you want to live your your

raise your family that they come talk to

you and then finally launching to

college um in terms of spiritual and

religious development it is very common

to go through this phase where you have

to reject and and kind of break away

from what mom and dad taught me it used

to be College it might even be happening

sooner now so in that phase where your

kids are actually stepping away from the

faith um I would say remaining attached

and calm and non-judgmental and standing

in the truth of your faith is the best

you can do be it’s it’s not the it’s the

best you can do and an important thing

to do that they feel like um that you’re

not rejecting them they’re going to

reject you they’re going to turn away

potentially that’s an arc of development

they see and a lot of kids can get lost

there because they don’t feel free to

kind of come back in or they don’t feel

free to ask questions oh my gosh let

your kids say I don’t not sure God’s

real that’s awesome why not why what do

you not think is real about God well

have you looked for the questions why

don’t or the answers to those questions

just don’t stop asking the questions

that’s when you lose them and it’s so

old old dated why do you think marriage

is between a man and a wife a man and a

woman well what do you think marriage is

and why do you think that and where do

you get that from you know it’s not at

this older teenage college you’re not

preaching at them you’re more wanting to

hear where they’re coming from so you

can offer this is how you can explore

and find out why we stand on this

foundational truth it needs to become

their own uh they have found this stage

of abdicating Faith where if I just

believe it because my parents believe

eventually it will fall apart either

it’s at 30 or 40 or 5050 at some point

there’s a a faith crisis because they

never owned it for themselves so letting

your kids kind of go through that

process to own it for themselves um and

then tolerating our own loss as they do

break away and make different choices

and become different people that we can

just handle you know everything they do

is not a direct reflection on me I don’t

have an imaginary audience out there

either it’s okay you know that my child

knows they’re loved and that’s that’s

going to get them through just about

everything tremendous so good well so

good any anything else I what about

culture school systems all that kind of

stuff is that just too too big of a oh

no it’s important it’s it’s part of it

um if you add up the hours your kids are

at school more than they’re with you in

terms of waking hours right um so

ongoing conversation about what’s

happening at school uh making things I I

don’t want to say normal but normalizing

so they can talk about it so uh for

instance you know so and so has a crush

on so and so well if if it’s a boy with

a girl well that’s normal yeah you’re

designed to have crushes and you talk

about what do that mean what do you do

with a crush at this age and when should

we date well what’s dating for when are

you ready to get married what do you you

know when should they date what is there

a magic number that you think well it’s

defining date so that means someone

picking my kid up putting them in a car

and taking them off on their own they

know that’s a pretty big step um we’re

looking somewhere around 16 or 17 before

that one-on-one would be allowed and we

would have to know who the person that

the young man is he would have had to

been in our house and at our dinner

table definitely more than once we would

need to know his parents we don’t have

to be friends but I got to know who the

parents are you know know their faith

background I I can’t make my kid choose

the same Faith but you know so that’s

not oldfashioned that’s not you you and

you know even

um through through statistics or

whatever that you that that’s still

important I mean you know that’s

interesting to me because I I didn’t

even know if people still think like

that if parents still think in some

circles what I just said was pretty

liberal there some circles who believe

that you shouldn’t date till you get

married and that’s why I like the

conversation of what is this dating for

are you ready to get married no okay

well let’s talk about you just enjoy

this person’s time then you shouldn’t be

doing things that move you towards a

marriage state and then delineating um

courtship different from dating

courtship is oh now I think I might want

to marry you or be only with you you

know have you talked about this with the

person that you’re going out with so

when that 16-year-old starts dating um

what what kind of what kind of

restrictions do you recommend or what

kind of uh boundaries do you recommend

sure well when you said that first thing

comes months lots of prayer um you know

you got that yeah same for whether you

have a son or a daughter I mean if your

son is going into someone’s home and

putting their daughter into his car you

need to know who that family is uh you

certainly need to know where they’re

going the phone that we just you know

demonized it does track them and it

shows that life you know life 360 and

other apps you can see where they’re

going and who they’re going to be with I

mean a curfew is just hey is that old

school I mean just a curfew is just flat

out you know standard I know kids have

ways to get around this there is

actually research that shows even the

Christian kids lie to their parents

there’s a little bit that that’s

developmentally normal if you catch them

in a minor lie you know don’t let the

ceiling fall in the house you talk

through why you talk through the remorse

I I I’m not suggesting being over

punitive you have to balance some of

that freedom um but yeah it would

certainly be and if you’re going

somewhere this party you’re going to you

know they’re probably drinking so you

just ask so is there drinking there how

are you going to handle drinking you

know obviously when the car is involved

in drinking extremely strict rules along

with okay if you end up drinking and you

didn’t mean to here’s here’s Uber either

call me or here’s the card and you use

it automatically for the Uber or I’ll

call you an Uber um I I have a rule

right now with my daughters wherever you

go with a friend you come home with that

friend I I mean you don’t go to these

parties whether with your buddies or

girls going together and all of a sudden

someone decides they’re staying when you

all came together oh no you drive them

home they want to get back in the car

and go back over that party at Uber you

know you can’t control what they do but

protective Factor yeah you stay together

that’s how we show we love each other

that’s how we show like we were sing

earlier if I’m a Christian I’m supposed

to be different people supposed to

notice I’m Different more than an emblem

that I wear and that is no uh you’re

we’re we came together we’re going home

together so yes I’m I I wish there was a

better word than oldfashioned but uh my

husband has interesting story he was

actually raised realizing that his

parents were more strict he was the

oldest and he’s just like I knew we all

had to be home before anybody else and

he said they made me realize that they

probably cared more like they cared more

about me and his

neighborhood some kids got on drugs you

know some kids never got out of high

school um and so it’s okay for your kid

not to like you I mean I have heard if

if your kid likes you then you’re not

being all the time then you’re not being

a parent kid needs to know you love them

kid needs to know you like them they

like like I want to spend time with you

and be around you I’m not so distracted

that I’m not going to hang out with you

um but it’s okay for them to be mad at

you because you are setting a boundary

while they’re under your roof and it’s

so like you said building the um

relationship stronger gives you more

ability to enforce absolutely with with

them um you know a rule or whatever I

like that’s very true which goes back to

protecting that family time you’re not

going to build a relationship with a f-

minute check-in powerful I felt that the

foundation of everything you were saying

you know somebody might just hear Oh I

like that rule I like that rule I’m

going to enforce that rule but really

everything you said was relationship

relationship relationship care love they

matter being interested being curious

absolutely not jumping to harsh

judgments y you know and then and

because you’ve got that you can say well

this is how we’re going to do it yeah

and this is the this is the way we do

things I I think that’s and like he said

you’re not a fdy duddy you’re educated

you’re insightful uh you know the

science the the psychology the soci all

these factors are going into an educated

approach yeah um on raising children

very very good part of that relation

ship is knowing what they’re interested

in so that family time they get to pick

sometimes I mean I definitely find

myself doing things I don’t love but

that’s what my kid wants to do and we

said this is what relationship means so

sometimes we do what you want sometimes

we drag you along you’re coming whether

you want to or not you know a lot of the

things as we close uh that that you’ve

talked about deep down in our hearts

like the sports on Sunday and all of

that and how it can just get so out of

hand traveling teams and and we we’re

not you know we’re not against any of

those things sports are wonderful but

you you really do have to make up your

mind that there are priorities in your

home and in your family that that you’re

willing to you’re willing to defend and

stand right absolutely and hearing you

say that I think is a great

encouragement to parents out there that

are doing that and they feel as we

talked today about guilt they feel guilt

like I’m taking my kid that they just

want to be especially pastors home they

just want to be normal when normal is

not look at normal now yeah do you

really want to be normal no oh well

normal for kids to be doing everything

you doing drugs do you know getting high

getting drunk whatever else that they

can find so at early ages so we don’t

want our kids to be normal no no we want

them to be Christians that’s it we

haven’t been normal since the beginning

well thank Dr flaming thank you so much

if people want to get in touch with you

um you have so many materials that uh

and you’re very connected to Dr Townsen

and others that that you work with that

could be very beneficial to people who

are listening to this who have

Ministries who have want material and

you mentioned you had an ebook I do yeah

I have a free ebook um that listing out

all the resources we’ve discussed on

this episode and the previous one and

you can go to my website that we

mentioned I think give it again yeah Dr

Michelle Fleming it’s Dr R Michelle m i

c h l e and then fluming with one m f l

m i n.com we feel a little bit guilty

for taking so much time I I bet you are

uh exhausted all we’ve done is throwing

questions this is so important and for

folks to know they’re not alone for

pastors to know they’re not alone in

this thank you yeah you’re welcome

absolutely thank you for hanging out

with us once again please like or

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