Amir Tsarfati: The Genocide Propaganda

In this episode, Amir sits down with Jeff Cuozzo and Tommy Fretwell to discuss the truth about the accusations against Israel and the church’s role in standing with God’s chosen people. Uncover the biblical foundations for supporting Israel and the urgent need to combat the rising tide of anti-Semitism. Prepare to be challenged and inspired as you explore the pivotal role of Israel in God’s prophetic plan. You can find a written document of this episode here. https://cdn.amplifi.pattern.com/ab915… Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://buff.ly/36cDNpo Order Amir’s new book “Discovering Daniel”: https://discoveringdaniel.com Follow us on social media: Instagram:   / beholdisrael   Facebook:   / beholdisrael   Telegram: https://t.me/beholdisraelchannel Visit our website: https://beholdisrael.org Public Reading of Scripture: http://beholdprs.org DVD’s & Digital Downloads: https://shop.beholdisrael.org Latest Middle East News: https://beholdisrael.org/news/ Bible Teachings: https://beholdisrael.org/watch-and-li… Articles: https://beholdisrael.org/articles/ Teaching Around the World: https://beholdisrael.org/teaching-aro… Bible Experience Tours: https://beholdisrael.org/bible-experi…

A: Shalom everyone, I’m Amir Tsarfati

and welcome to yet another episode of our Anchor Podcast.

Remember that hope is as an anchor to our soul.

We want to provide hope through the things that we talk about and we communicate to all of you.

These are the last days we are dealing with so much chaos and I guess darkness all around us.

But there’s a lot of light that we can find and it’s only in our walk with the Lord.

And this is why we bring people that can share with us what God is doing in so many different parts of the world.

And today with me I have Pastor Thomas Fretwell from Calvary Chapel Hastings in the UK.

And also Pastor Jeff Cuozzo from Calvary Chapel Bath, UK.

And so we have a British team with us here today.

I’m going to ask Thomas if you can start with a prayer and then we’ll dive into super, super important podcast.

Let’s go.

T: Let’s pray.

Heavenly Father, Lord God, we give You thanks and we give You praise for this opportunity.

We get to just sit together to speak about the things of God.

Lord, what a privilege it is.

We pray, Lord, that You’d open our eyes to see the wonders contained within it.

We pray that we would help people have understanding, Lord, of the times that we live.

We ask Your blessing upon this time now, in Jesus’ name.

A: Amen.
T&J: Amen.

A: So again, Shalom everyone.

We are nine months into the war of Israel against Hamas since that horrific day of October 7th.

And we hear, by the way, in the background as we are sitting around this table,

the F-16s taking off from the air base here in the Jezreel Valley,

flying all the way up to Lebanon and down to Gaza.

And this war actually basically surfaced so many things that were there.

But let’s put it this way, they were on the shelf and now they became an epidemic, basically.

And we’re talking about Antisemitism, we’re talking about wrong teachings regarding Israel in the church.

And of course, narrative that is accusing Israel of genocide that we hear all over the world,

that unfortunately the youngsters are being brainwashed to believe that it’s the case.

I would like Pastor Thomas, if you can, first of all introduce yourself,

and then I’ll tell the audience why is it that I thought it would be a great thing to have you here with us today

when it comes to those topics we mentioned.

So who are you?

T: Sure, absolutely.

Thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure to be here.

So my name is Thomas or Tommy, people call me.

I’m a pastor in the southeast of England, the Calvary Chapel Church.

And I also run a ministry called the Ezra Foundation.

Primarily, we’re a ministry that focuses on producing resources to help people get serious about studying the Word of God,

but with a particular focus on helping people understand God’s plan for Israel from the Scriptures.

And it’s really our heart to teach that to the church, particularly in the Western world maybe,

and also to try and reach the younger generation with a sound biblical theology of Israel.

And that’s the heart of the Ezra Foundation.

A: So basically, one of the main reasons for the Ezra Foundation is because there is a problem.

The topic of Israel is something that is being misunderstood, mistaught, and therefore people get the wrong idea.

T: Yeah, absolutely. And this is nothing new.

Of course, we’ve seen aberrant doctrines relating to Israel going back into the early church.

But I think in our day and age, particularly in the post-1948, post-1967 world, with all the political ramifications,

we found that often theology goes hand in hand with politics,

and it’s more that, it’s not influenced by the Bible anymore.

People have ideologies and worldviews that play into their understanding,

and particularly people who are being fed news and information from particular sources,

and they use that to form their view of Israel.

Whereas as believers, particularly, we must first and always go to the final authority, which is the Scriptures.

And we want to build from that so that we can interpret the world through the lens of the Bible.

A: That Scripture that gives us hope and that hope that is like an anchor to our soul.

And Pastor Jeff, you’re very familiar to us in Behold Israel.

You were part of our team for a while, and you’re back with your old love in a way.

I got to know you in 2009 when you worked for the Joshua Fund.

Can you tell us a little bit about that and what you do today?

J: Yeah, absolutely, Amir. Thank you.

It’s great to be with you.

Yeah, so the Joshua Fund has really been set up as something to say,

how can we come alongside of the local believers here in the land of Israel?

And the key to the Joshua Fund has been a really important factor.

It’s not an either/or, one side or the other sort of situation, but it is a both/and saying,

all men, all people need Jesus.

And whether that’s Jewish or Arab, there’s a need for everyone to know the truth of the Christ, the Messiah.

And so the heart is to come alongside and see how can we undergird, how can we help,

how can we support local believers here in the land and in this region with just the hope and the help.

And again, you using that word hope as the anchor is so important

because so often when we find ourselves in times like this, when things feel hopeless,

is when there can be doing things that we probably most regret.

And so hope is so important.

And that’s something we as an organization are always trying to instill

and always trying to do is to come alongside of local believers with hope, with help.

A: Now, Tommy, I remember a couple months ago, you sent me an email with an article that you wrote on the topic of genocide,

what Israel is being accused of by the International Court of Justice or Criminal Court of Justice,

as well as by some Arab countries, of course, the Palestinians themselves and others.

And I thought your article was brilliant.

And I said, Tommy, when you’re in Israel next time, please come over and let’s talk about it.

So walk me through your points when it comes to how believers who knows that Israel is not committing a genocide,

what is it that they can use, what are the tools that you can give them in order to tackle that false accusation?

T: Sure, absolutely.

Well, I wrote that article because as maybe many of your listeners are, we see this charge just come up again and again.

It’s coming from politicians, coming from celebrities.

It’s coming even from segments of the Christian church.

So I wanted to just provide some clear thinking on it.

I mean, that’s really the basis of it, provide some clear thinking,

look at the facts and find out whether this is just a charged, an emotionally charged label and just look behind the facts.

So what I first did is I went to the actual definition of genocide itself.

And this word, because just looking at that is instructive, looking at who coined the word, what it was coined for.

This was in 1944, a Jewish Polish author called Raphael Lemkin.

He coined this word, particularly in a response to the Nazis policies during the Second World War.

A: So before 1944, the word genocide did not exist?

T: It’s not as far as I’m aware.

It wasn’t used in this context at least.

But 1944, in his book, that was the first time this was coined with the meaning that it has today.

And it was, like I said, mostly in response to the Holocaust, but also he attributed it to the 1915-16 Armenian genocide, too.

And I think that in itself, when we look at why the word was coined to describe the actions of first, the Nazis and second,

the actions against the Armenian Christians by the Ottomans Turks.

Yeah. So those two things in themselves should be at the forefront of our minds when we hear charges today.

And then if you jumped in the article, I go to the 1948 Genocide Convention, where they expand on just the meaning of the word.

And they have a very clear statement on there where they say to constitute genocide,

it must be acts committed with the intent either to destroy in whole or part any national, ethnic, religious or racial group.

So there’s a two-pronged approach that must both be there to constitute genocide,

one, the mental element, the intent, and second, obviously, the physical acts that would follow from that.

But you must be able to prove that the intent is there to destroy a whole national, ethnic or religious group or else it does not constitute genocide.

So that’s very important because if you just take that alone, when we look at the current situation, what is going on,

the intent of Israel’s actions in this war, in their response to what happened to them.

Firstly, it’s also worth pointing out they were not the aggressors in this conflict.

That’s a very important point when you’re establishing intent.

And second, they made their intent clear in the ICJ proceedings.

That was a big part of those proceedings in the court establishing their intent,

which was to remove Hamas as the ones who perpetrated the horrors of October 7th and then also to rescue the hostages.

And so those are the spoken intents.

I believe their actions have been in accordance with that.

And therefore, on the simple definition provided by the UN, it does not constitute genocide.

And we haven’t even looked at the population statistics around a civilian to combat death ratio.

That’s just on the definitions.

It fails.

A: I mean, if we really had any intention to commit a genocide when it comes to the innocent civilian population among the Palestinians,

why would we then care so much about bringing them humanitarian aid and food and medications?

And why would we even ask them to move to humanitarian zones in order to be safe?

Why would we call them, send emails and text messages, send empty shell rockets just to scare them so they can leave the house?

And then, of course, all of that constitutes, of course, the effort of Israel to avoid anything that might even be interpreted as genocide.

T: And that’s important.

So we say it fails to constitute genocide on the definition.

It fails to constitute genocide on the actions of Israel because those things you just listed do not fit someone trying to commit genocide.

And then if I can just maybe go a step further and just look.

So you take the statistics from the Palestinian Central Bureau that gives the population statistics.

And even they acknowledge that the Palestinian population has increased eightfold since 1948.

A: Eightfold.

T: Eightfold since 1948.

That’s from their own statistics.

And when you look at the statistical data of historical genocide, the Armenian genocide,

that was 1.2 million out of 1.5 million.

That’s almost the whole population.

In the Second World War, it was 75 percent.

World Jewy has still not risen to pre-holocaust levels, close but not quite.

And then you can go…

A: 80 years later and we’re still not there.

T: So and then you go to let’s go to the Rwandan genocide,

that was eight hundred thousand in just one hundred days.

And then the Khmer Rouge Pol Pot.

That was two million, I believe, 25% of the population.

That’s the statistical data for genocide.

And eightfold increase in population is not.

So it’s on all three of those things, it fails.

So that that we have to then ask the question.

So why are we seeing this charge?

Factually, you just cannot make that charge.

There’s something else going on here, which is what we need to really make sure that the church understands and the world.

I mean, as much as we can understand this issue.

A: Now, Jeff, if you went back 50, 60 years ago, was the world in love with Israel, then?

Or do we see this more of the same?

J: Yeah, I think it’s important to make this distinction as I think Tommy was just alluding to there.

It’s also incredibly important for the church to be understanding the real nature of this animosity.

And where is this really coming from?

Because to see, I mean, I even had someone who came over to our house to do some work.

It was a painter who was doing some work.

And he asked the question, why are people so angry about Israel?

Why do they hate Israel or Jews so much?

He was just asking the question as just an everyday person, because he even noticed like, something seems odd about this.

It seems too extreme, like that people would get so upset.

And clearly, it points to the fact that there’s a spirit behind it.

There’s something more to this.

And what we do know, right?

And as biblical, Bible-believing Christians, we have to go back to the Scriptures, don’t we,

to say, what is the deal with Israel?

Why is there a nation?

You know, why was May 14th, 1948, such a significant day when God said through the prophet Isaiah,

can a nation be born in a day?

And the answer is, well, yes, it can.

And as you know, and as we talk about, Ezekiel 36 and 37 will be fulfilled and have been fulfilled in our day,

as even the prime minister, you know, understood and declared.

And so when we understand that we realize this is Bible prophecy being fulfilled because God made promises

that ultimately, and this is the key, isn’t it?

He’s coming back to a land, to the land of Israel, where He’s going to rule and reign from Jerusalem,

where there’s going to be Jewish people living in the land as the book of Revelation makes so clear to us in the last days.

So if that’s the case, and there’s an enemy and adversary against that,

when someone makes the statement, “From the river to the sea,”

basically saying, “No more Jews in the land of Israel,”

“We get rid of them completely,” a complete genocide, a complete annihilation of the Jewish people,

that’s not just Antisemitic, that’s just not anti-Israel,

that’s anti-God, because His Word says there will be a nation, there will be a people,

and I will rule and reign from Jerusalem.

And so I think that’s important for the Church to understand.

A: And it’s interesting because, Tommy, Pharaoh and the Amalekites, and then all the seven nations in the land,

and then the Philistines, and then we move on to Assyrian, Babylonians, and then all the way,

and you can clearly see that there’s a problem that the world had with God’s plan for Israel.

But then one would think that as the Jewish Messiah,

as He was born in the Jewish town of Bethlehem, House of Bread,

to a Jewish family of the tribe of Judah, fulfilling the words of the prophet Jeremiah,

and the prophet Zechariah, and the prophet Isaiah,

as He came to the world and as later on the Holy Spirit came down and as the “Kehila”, the Church, was born,

you would think that from now on, at least that body, the Church, will be pro-Israel

because they know the Scripture, they know God, they know the plan of God.

But in reality, what is it that we see ever since the first century?

T: So what you see is a theology that is often referred to with different names,

replacement theology, fulfillment theology is more popular these days, and in the academic world, Supersessionists.

And this is the view that maybe explains what we’re talking about here,

why we find such hostility to Israel even within the Church.

And as we’ve spoken of, we do believe there’s maybe a more satanic motivation

behind all of these things, both in the Church and in the culture sometimes,

as we see the actual hatred for the Jewish people.

But as far as the theology, where you would expect a Church that is born of Jewish roots

and has all of those things you’ve just mentioned there, that we would get this,

but we don’t.

And this happened early in the Church,

and replacement theology is so structurally ingrained in the way that the Western Church particularly reads the Bible,

that we don’t even see that that’s the view we’re holding.

So we kind of have this model, and you’ll find this,

if you study biblical theology in a seminary,

you’re often taught the narrative of Scripture in this way, creation, fall redemption.

So you start with a bit of Genesis, and you study where sin came in,

and then you get to the fall obviously, where sin came in,

and then you jump all the way kind of to the cross.

And with that telling of Scripture,

you’ve completely excluded the whole story of Israel, covenant.

And that’s the one that everyone forgets, covenant,

because the blessings that we have in the Church and that were made to Israel

and that we share in some ways in the spiritual aspects,

they come from covenant, God’s promises.

And the Church has just got so used to jumping from creation, fall to the cross

that we miss this whole story.

So people don’t even see the need for it.

And we’re so used to interpreting things maybe in a way that puts us, a gentile church at the center of the story,

that these things are not even in their mind.

So that when they’re then confronted with some of these things they see in the culture,

particularly the slant that often the media gives you,

they’re immediately like, “Oh, no, that was old, that’s done, that’s done away with.”

And they just don’t put these things together.

And this is one of the things, just why theology is so important,

a proper biblical theology, is you can trace this theme of Israel.

And really, it’s not just Israel,

it’s God’s promise that stands behind that,

that is the real focal point of that.

And that’s what I want to emphasize.

It is God’s promises, and it’s His promises that can’t be broken.

It’s His word that proves to be true.

And that is why we support it,

because as people of the word, we want to live out the truth, we want to be known as people of the word,

that we must uphold the truth too.

He says, “Not one word of My good promise will ever be broken.”

When you read the Bible, you find a lot of promises made to the nation of Israel.

Not exclusively, and there’s more than that, but they’re there.

And you can’t come up with some interpretive method to spiritualize them,

to make them apply to you and leave them with the curses, take the blessings here.

And that’s what the church has been doing for so long.

And I think we need to address that.

J: And just to add to that, Amir, one thing is,

Tommy was saying just about the promises, the covenants,

we’re all familiar with Jeremiah 31 and the new covenant.

And if God, I mean, one of the keys to this,

for anybody who’s holding to a belief system that says,

“God finished with the nation of Israel.

He finished with Jews. They were disobedient.

He’s done with them, the diaspora that’s all gone.”

The problem with that is covenant.

He made a covenant with the nation.

A: And even the new covenant is given to Judah and Jerusalem.

J: Right. And so with that covenant, though, the understanding is, as believers, as Christians today,

if God is a God who breaks His covenant,

if the One on the other end of it is unfaithful to it,

well, then that means where are we as Christians today?

Because we’re counting on a covenant, the new covenant, right? In His blood.

And so if He’s a God who breaks covenant, He’s not a covenant keeper,

then that would put all of us on shaky ground as New Testament believers.

A: Yeah, I agree with you.

One of the reasons I wrote the book, “Israel and the Church”

is because I felt that people think that it’s either/or.

They never really, truly got to the point of the God of Israel,

that He provided a solution for the whole world through the Messiah,

and yet is not done with Israel.

And they’re not either/or.

Israel never replaced the church.

The church never replaced Israel.

And if anything, Israel will get there to the point where all Israel will be saved.

And there will be a national salvation that will follow the repentance, of course, of Israel.

And God is going to have them at the Millennial Kingdom, reigning with Him from Jerusalem.

Israel once again will be a nation, a leading nation,

and people will come up to Jerusalem every year on Feast of Tabernacles.

And if God is done with Israel, why would He name in the New Jerusalem the gates after the 12 tribes of Israel?

And so you can clearly see that if Messiah’s name even now is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah,

and He is the God of Israel, the Messiah,

obviously God is not done with Israel.

And I think that if Christians spent more time understanding their security and their status,

and where they are in Christ, they wouldn’t be so insecure when the topic of Israel is coming.

T: I think that’s it, the insecurity.

Because I find this a lot whenever you speak positively about Israel, maybe in a Christian setting,

particularly if it’s someone who hasn’t engaged these types of issues before,

their first reaction is always, “But what about us?”

Just find that so foreign to the Bible’s narrative as you go through,

as you were saying that I was just thinking of the verse from Apostle Paul,

where he speaks about even their rejection was a blessing to the world because the gospel went out.

So it was always part of the plan.

But then he goes, he doesn’t just leave it there, like that’s the end of the story.

He goes on and he says, “But think what their acceptance will be.

It’ll be life from the dead. It will be…”

A: Romans 11.

T: Yeah, that’s it.

So I mean, that’s how we need to think of this issue.

It’s blessing upon blessing in many ways when you see God’s plan coming together.

A: Yeah, and I think that if anything, the Bible talks about the duty of the church to stand for Israel,

and to also and our (duty of) coming to help the local body of Christ in Romans 15, we see that very clearly communicated.

I mean, Paul was about to leave Asia Minor on his way to Jerusalem.

And he said that people gave him gifts to bring to the saints in Jerusalem.

He says, it’s not only a gift, but it’s also their duty.

If the Jews shared with you the spiritual things, you need to share with them the material things.

So I think that part of what you guys are doing with Joshua Fund, the fund brings funs.

J: Joshua Fun or fund… a bit of both.

A: Yes, so you guys are helping the local messianic body of Christ.

J: Yeah, and I think as you say that, I mean, it’s again just that concept of how there is that,

almost that, if you wanted to use the word obligation, but that sense of responsibility,

because God has blessed the world through the nation of Israel.

The Messiah has come through the nation of Israel.

And so for you and me, for Tommy and I, at least, as those who aren’t Jew…

Well, no, you got Jewish roots as well…

But the point being, for the church, there is that understanding of that need to recognize

where the blessing has come from and to be able to come back and say…

Because again, we’re seeing the fulfillment here of what God said was going to happen.

And so we wouldn’t want to miss out on what the Lord was doing.

And so for us as an organization, we’re saying, Lord, what are you doing?

And how do we line ourselves up with who and how You’re working in these last days

as you’re preparing your church?

And again, it shows that we are supporting the work that God’s doing.

And it’s not just an idea of our own.

We’re really wanting to align ourselves with what the Scriptures say.

A: So people go to churches nowadays and they complain that the church is not

standing with Israel. In fact, the pastors are very lukewarm.

When it comes to the situation, they prefer not to take sides and they prefer to just stay neutral

and to teach the Word.

That’s what they say: “Let’s stick with the Word.”

However, the Word says something else. What is it, Tommy?

T: Absolutely. If that’s what you’re going to say, stick with the Word.

You’re going to have to engage with this issue sooner or later.

Because it’s in the Bible from start to finish, really.

You’re going to find this issue. So you cannot avoid it.

So for me, it’s a wonderful area of Scripture to study.

It’s always been a joy of our heart to see God’s plan and covenants unfolding.

And also, the Apostle Paul tells us to learn the lessons that we read about from the Bible, from Israel.

It was put there for our instruction, for our edification, so that we may,

through the perseverance of the Scriptures, we may have hope.

It’s a wonderful blessing to be able to study these things.

And it just reminds me of the sons of Issachar.

They understood the times.

A: Exactly.

T: So they would have knowledge of what they should do.

And that’s, I think, the times that we’re living in now.

And this is maybe particularly since the events of October 7th.

I think a line has been drawn in the sand.

A: Yes.

T: And it’s this issue of Israel.

People are maybe no longer able to have that middle lane that they thought they could live in.

A: You need to choose a side.

T: Yeah. Just do the…

And they’re going to be forced to.

By the way that the political scene is developing, by the way the hostility in the world is developing,

they’re sooner or later, whether it’s at work, in the church,

they’re going to have to choose a side.

And when you make that decision, part of what we want to do through the Ezra Foundation

and through the ministry at our church is we want to make sure that people are informed.

They’re not just going to make that decision based on one TikTok video

or based on one little video that they’ve seen,

which is unfortunately how a lot of people are doing this.

A: Exactly.

T: And you can discover that just by looking at these people marching through the capital cities every week.

A: Yeah. Well, Antisemitism is definitely on the rise.

We’re reaching new heights where some Holocaust survivors say

that it’s even worse than the months and years prior to the Holocaust of the late 1930s and 1940s.

But do you guys at least see, at least what I see, that it is actually playing a role

in the fulfillment of Bible prophecy?

J: Well, I mean, I think we believe, don’t we, that God is going to bring His people back to the land, right?

And so, yes, there’s no question.

This is the first time I’ve had this happen.

And I know there’s very few, interestingly enough,

there’s very few American Jews who come back to Israel for Aliyah.

Now they’ll come back and maybe even buy a house here and have a place to come and do all that.

But when it comes to actually making Aliyah, it’s been a…

A: Aliyah means immigrating…

J: Yeah, coming back to Israel to live here.

A: To live here.

J: And so,

but what we’re seeing more than ever before for the first time,

I believe, in at least my lifetime, is I’ve heard Jewish people, a friend in Boston, for example, saying,

“We’re scared.

We’re actually scared.”

And I think that’s the difference because when you’re comfortable,

it’s like, “Well, we can go visit Israel.

We can go spend time there.”

A: “…Bar Mitzvah there.”

J: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

“Come over for a trip and whatever.

But we live in America.

That’s our home.

That’s where we live.

That’s where family is,” whatever.

But all of a sudden, and we’re seeing that, I think, in England,

we’ve seen the same in some of Europe as well.

And so I think more and more this is part of the fulfillment that God is using.

He’s allowing, I guess you would say it that way,

that this is part of the impetus to bring these people home.

A: Since the elections in France, 480% increase in interest of French Jews to move back to Israel.

And you guys are coming from the UK.

In the UK, you had elections a few days earlier.

And although I must say, it’s not like the people changed their mind in a landslide.

It was more your system that allows the winner to take it all.

And if you’re not uniting power, then someone else is going to take it

and run all the way to Parliament with your vote.

So but how do you see the UK these days?

We see pictures from London with all the protests, the marches in the streets.

We see mayors, some council members,

it’s almost becoming a complete Muslim country.

And yet it’s not because we know, what is it, 12% Muslim?

T: Something like that.

A: About so…

I mean, 88% of the Brits are not Muslims.

And yet it looks like the dominant, loud, very active and often very violent portion is making its sound.

What is it like to be as a Christian, as a believer who stands for, prays for and supports Israel?

What is it like to be?

T: It’s interesting.

I think it very much will depend on where you’re living,

to where you actually experience these different cultural trends.

But just one thing about that, I think what we do see, although the percentages may be small,

a lot of the election was ran, people running on the immigration issue and these types of things.

And we’ve seen that many mayors of even London are Muslim.

And obviously, they promote some of those things.

And we’ve seen this growing.

And I believe it will continue to steadily grow in the UK.

And I don’t think where I am, I’m small town, southeast,

everything’s sort of slower in the country.

I guess it is…
A: …hasting, yeah?

T: Hasting, that’s it.

…in most places.

But we see this influence growing.

But I think what’s interesting about it is almost like, of course,

when you go through and study some of the Islamic doctrines,

and I mean, you can do this to the October 7 issue too.

And we see that.

And the mixing with politics.

You know, it’s a belief that mixes with politics, isn’t it?

It almost uses our political system,

particularly the harder left-leaning politics.

Because although they wouldn’t agree on many issues–

A: On most issues.

T: On most issues, yeah.

It’s almost like they’re willing to use that in order to accomplish their purposes.

And what will happen if the other side…? We don’t know.

This is going to be trends that are very interesting to see.

And it’s been fluctuating like this for a long time.

But for me, I know these things happen in the world.

And they’re always going to happen.

The prince of the power of the air is active in the world.

But my concern is, where is the church in all of this?

You see that?

Where is the voice of truth for these things?

Yes, we have some political commentators saying things.

And we have different conservatives and different people like that

who are engaging and trying to understand these things.

But as far as I’m concerned, if they don’t have the truth of the word of God,

if they don’t know the Messiah,

they’re always going to be missing something to understand this.

And that’s the issue.

We need people who know that speaking.

A: Yes, I agree with you.

Now, Jeff, you were born in Joysey.

J: Hey!

A: New Jersey
J: I forgot about it over here.

A: Yeah, Jeff Cuozzo.

But I mean, you married a Brit and you live in the UK for a long time now.

J: uh-huh, British citizen now.

A: You’re a British–

J: I am.

A: Oh, you crossed the line.

It’s OK.

Can you hold the other citizens?

J: Yes, I can.

I’m still a dual citizen.

A: Now–

J: I just celebrated my dependence on July 4.

A: There you go.

But my question is, ok, so as an American citizen,

do you see the same thing going on in America?

Are you asking the same question Tommy’s asking:

“Where is the church?” or is it better?

Is it much better in America or are you going the same path?

J: I think we’ve got the remnant, right?

There always seems to be the remnant.

And so there are those faithful congregations who are standing up.

And some more vocal than others, maybe online, and making a difference.

Obviously, a good friend of yours, Jack Hibbs, and others like him

who have made it clear where they stand and are being a voice for truth.

But yeah, I think you’re absolutely right that more and more we’re seeing this

influence taking place where the church is less and less likely to see this as a topic

they even want to venture into.

It’s like, eh, it’s too sticky.

Oh, it’s too volatile.

We don’t need that.

We’re just going to, as Tommy alluded to earlier, we’re just going to teach the Bible

and you’re like, well, you can’t leave this part out.

This is kind of like the through line through the whole thing,

the nation of Israel and God’s plans.

A: I honestly believe that we’ve flipped a page on October 7th.

We’re in a new, probably a phase in world history.

Things are darker.

Things are more intense.

I think that the enemy understands that his end is near.

I think that the rise of the Antichrist is around the corner

and what’s going on in Europe does not surprise me.

But I think that people need to understand that out of so much despair,

the longing for a leader is going to increase.

And I think that people need to understand that, as you said earlier,

choosing a side is not even an option anymore,

or not choosing a side is not an option anymore.

And I think God is watching.

God is watching right now.

I mean, there’s of course the sheep and the goats at the end of the tribulation.

But I think that many people need to understand that if God at the end of the tribulation

is going to judge the nations according to how they treated Israel,

what makes you think that He doesn’t care about how nations treat Israel today?

And certainly, what makes you think that He doesn’t care about how Christians treat Israel today?

J: Yeah, I mean, it’s interesting you said that. The way you said that about God is watching.

He sees.

Because you think back, remember the story of when Samuel was called by God to fill his horn with oil and go anoint David as king, right?

And Samuel was just working on the assumption, well, he’s going to be a big guy,

probably like Saul, right?

And so he’s going to be one of the first brothers that he saw there in Jesse’s family.

And God obviously had to make it clear to him, no.

And specifically what God says to Samuel, I thought it was so interesting.

He says, “I’ve not chosen them.”

In other words, they didn’t know they were being assessed.

Their faithfulness was already being assessed.

Well, here you have David just out in the fields killing a lion and a bear,

being found faithful to serve his father well.

And it’s just such a picture of like God sees all, knows all,

and there is that real clarity in the Scriptures that my brethren, you did it unto the least of these, you did it to me.

A: Yeah, and this is why,

first of all, I want to thank both of you for being Gentiles who are standing for the truth.

I mean, it would have been much easier for you if you joined the mob

and just chanted anti-Israeli and Antisemitic and chants and be loved by so many.

But yet you choose to stand on the right side and take the blame and take the heat and stand for the truth.

And I want to thank you.

And I think that it’s an example for everyone.

I mean, the hope that we have that is like an anchor to our soul is a hope that we get from Scriptures.

The Scriptures are only something that we can benefit from if we have the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is the One who gives us courage.

And the courage is the one thing we need today to not follow the mob, but to stand on solid ground.

And remember one thing, look, people think Israel must be perfect in order for us to stand on their side.

No, Israel is not going to be perfect until God is going to perfect them through first most repentance and salvation.

We cannot determine how we treat Israel by their spiritual state.

We cannot do that.

I mean, think about it.

You know, and I said that yesterday, I think I said that

God allowed the Babylonians to take the Jewish people out of the land and exile them and destroy Jerusalem.

And yet at the same time, He judged the Babylonians for doing that.

And it is the same God who said through Zachariah 2, He said,

“He who touches you touches the apple of My eye.”

So I’m just saying that it’s going to cost more to stand by the side of Israel.

It’s a matter of courage, clarity and clear understanding that this is where we need to do and what we need to do.

But I think if you have the Holy Spirit in you, it’s the only way to do that.

J: Yeah, the spirit of truth, right?

The spirit of truth.

And I think that is such a key point today.

You know, you mentioned,
A: There’s so much deception.

J: Oh, TikTok videos and just the marketing campaign of so much of the propaganda that is out there

that people see one thing, they see a video and it’s immediately emotionally charged.

A lot of it is emotional without actual facts.

And sadly, so often when facts are presented, it’s like, “No, no, no, no.

I don’t muddy the water with those facts.

I just, I already have my narrative.

I already have what I believe based on that emotional decision I made from that video I saw about that little kid.”

Or something like that.

And what you realize is, and this is, as you say, there’s a lot of deception,

the days we’re living in, we’re called to be salt and light, right?

And we need to be light by the power of the Holy Spirit living through us as we reflect His light in these dark days.

Because I was thinking about it the other day in Revelation, you know, right before Satan is bound for the thousand years,

it says he was deceiving the nations, bound for a thousand years, gets out,

immediately deceiving the nations.

And you’re just like, that’s pretty much his MO (way of operating).

That’s what he’s always doing.

But he’s doing that today as well.

And I think that’s why we as believers need to be studying to show ourselves approved.

Workers who need not be ashamed, rightly dividing that word of truth.

Because it’s so interesting, right?

You know from Thessalonians when Paul says, they fell for the lie.

They fell for the delusion, the deception, because they didn’t have a love of the truth.

And you realize-

A: That might save them.
J: That might save them.

And when you realize that, you realize if you are willfully rejecting facts, rejecting truth,

you’re opening yourself up to the lies.

And we’re seeing that all around us.

A: Yeah, I totally agree with you.

And I think that it doesn’t make you a better Christian

if you are accusing Israel of things that we already talked about, actually are factually wrong.

And so not only that you need to know your Bible, but you need to know facts and you need to not open yourself for all of this deception.

Israel on October 6th did not have any war with Gaza or Hamas.

And Israel on October 7th woke up to the most horrific massacre since the Holocaust.

More Jews were massacred within one day than any other year since the death camps of Auschwitz and Birkenau.

And so my point is, you need to educate yourself.

You need to learn what really happened, who did, why they did, what their agenda is.

And remember that standing with Israel, it’s not an option for the Christian.

It’s I guess it’s a duty for the Christian.

And again, you never, you know, biblical, you don’t have to measure your liking them or disliking them by their spiritual state,

but by the order that God gives you.

And so Israel, trust me, has been judged for their lack of faith, is being judged and will go through so much tribulation for their lack of faith.

But eventually God has a plan for them and part of the plan was to bring them back to the land

and eventually then comes the spiritual awakening.

J: Well, I was just thinking about that from Ezekiel when we think about the dry bones coming to life again.

But we see that the spirit still needs to be breathed into them.

And there is going to be that point where there’s the sprinkling of the water where I’m going to take out that heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.

We know that the nation of Israel is not there yet.

I know it’s referred to as the holy land by many right now,

but you just have to go to places like Tel Aviv and realize pretty quickly, OK, it’s not as holy as…

But the point is, there is still that need and God is going to fulfill His word as He promised.

He speaks it, He performs it, therefore we know the Lord has done it.

And we got to count on that.

T: I think that’s an important point to emphasize,

because in my discussions, I find people often in the church get confused when they hear us say these positive things or speak of this future plan for Israel.

And they then just look at Israel as it is today and they think, well, these things aren’t matching up.

Therefore, that must not be referring to Israel.

It must be spiritually fulfilled in the church.

And that’s the confusion.

And again, this is when you were saying we need to be educated, we need to be studied to show ourselves approved,

we need to have that love of the truth.

All these things play into that.

But we’re not willing to take that step.

You know, like when we prayed at the beginning, I always pray before I open the word of God,

Lord, open my eyes to see the wonders within like David prayed in the Psalms there.

And you’re going to see these things and the word of God is going to impact your life in a shape and form your thinking.

Your mind is going to be transformed and renewed.

A: Yes, I agree.

And you know, the Apostle Paul, a Pharisee-Jew persecuted by the Jewish people, yet he always knew that they are blind.

And that… and I remember when he gathered all the Jewish leaders to his home arrest in Rome in verse 17 of (Acts) Chapter 28, he said,

“And it came to pass after three days that Paul called the leaders of the Jews together.

So when they had come together, he said to them:

‘Men and brethren, though I have done nothing against our people or the customs of our fathers,

yet I was delivered as a prisoner from Jerusalem…'”

And then he said,

“… But when the [d]Jews spoke against it, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar,…'”

And look what he says,

“‘…not that I had anything of which to accuse my nation.'”

He said: Look, I understand it’s a blindness.

I don’t accuse them.

I was just like them.

And then he said, and the most important thing he said,

“‘…For this reason therefore I have called for you, to see you and speak with you,

because for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.'”

Yeshua, the Messiah, is the hope of Israel.

And that’s why Paul was bound in chain.

And Paul did not use that suffering to accuse others.

Actually said, not that I have anything to accuse my nation.

So how dare we that are not shackled with chains come and accuse others, especially those that are still in darkness

when we ourselves were there also and we know exactly what it is.

We have to remember; Israel is there because God wants them to be there.

And they do have hope, and there is a hope for Israel.

There is a hope for the whole world, and it’s worth being shackled with chains for that hope.

And the hope of Israel is the Messiah.

And that hope is like anchor to our soul.

J: And even as you say right there,

recognizing that the eyes are blind right now, but we are seeing as well the veil, I believe, more and more being removed.

And more and more coming to that understanding of the hope of Israel.

And it wasn’t too far from here, right?

Just over in Nazareth where Yeshua got up in that synagogue and read from Isaiah 61,

and we know it’s to open blind eyes and set captives free.

And so He is the fulfillment of the… He is the hope for Israel.

A: And even when they actually were about to push Him off the cliff, He just walked through them and went away.

He did not curse them.

He did not say He need to die.

He need to disappear.

No, He understood exactly.

J: Father forgive them they don’t know what they are doing.

A: (He) forgave them. Exactly.

And again, the day will come when all, as Romans 11 says, all Israel will be saved.

Until then God is watching how you or all of us are treating them.

Let’s not be goats.

Let’s be like sheep.

And then Pastor Jeff, can you close in prayer and then…

J: I would love to, my friend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, Lord, we want to be where You are.

We want to be in line with Your truth, with Your Word.

Lord, Your Word is the plumb line.

Your Word is the standard.

It’s the truth.

And Lord, we want to abide in that truth.

We want to walk in that light as You are the light.

And so Lord, we pray for our brothers and sisters and those out there that will hear

these words may be the enlightening of their eyes.

Lord, will You bring light to their understanding?

And Lord, may we continue to be faithful, Lord, to the calling that You’ve given us

as believers that You are the way, that You are the truth, that You are the life.

And Lord, that is what Israel needs.

That’s what we all need.

We need Jesus.

And so thank You again, Lord, for this time.

And we just pray for our brothers and sisters.

In B’Shem Yeshua, in Jesus’ name, Amen.

A: Pastor Thomas Fretwell and Pastor Jeff Cuozzo from the UK.

Thank you very much for joining us for this Anchor podcast.

And I’ll see you again in a few weeks for another very interesting podcast.

Until then, keep praying for the nation of Israel

and pray also for your churches, wherever you are, that the pastors will teach the full counsel of God

and that you will find yourself standing on the right side by Israel for Israel.

Pray for the nation. Pray for the soldiers.

Pray for the hostages. Pray for their families.

And remember, you don’t have an option.

We cannot sit on the fence.

We must take a stand.

Thank you again.

God bless you.

And Shalom from Galilee, Israel.