In 1976, when God spoke to Joyce’s heart that she would someday have “a large teaching tape ministry,” she could have only imagined what would happen over the next four decades.

so in 1976 you began your ministry right

when all of that was happening back then

there’s no way you had any idea where

God would take it today right but let’s

let’s start with what was that seed that

began it all for you how how did you

know that God had something for you to

do that was different than you ever

expected you know people ask all the

time how do you know when God is calling

you to do something and it may sound

like a lame answer but you just know I

mean you know it’s like God puts such a

strong desire in your heart it’s almost

like you’re captivated by it and you

couldn’t hardly do anything else

captivated that’s a good word yeah and I

had had a real touch from God and I

won’t even go into trying to explain

that it’s just you know when you know

that God has touched you you know I mean

I just I really felt a strong sensing of

God’s presence and and I became more

interested in the word as a result of

that and then the more I listened to the

word the more I was amazed at what

people are really anointed to teach

we’re getting out of the word I had

heard the word of course in church but

little bits and pieces of it and not in

the way that I was hearing it now and

probably part of that was just me you

know when when God awakens you to his

presence then everything begins to be a

lot more meaningful to you and I was

listening to a what was then a cassette

teaching tape and it was 60 minutes long

and it was on the scripture and Mark

cross over to the other side and I was

just amazed that anybody could get a

whole hour of teaching out of one verse

and keep my interest and it was about

when Jesus said to the disciples he

gotten the boats that crossed over to

the other side and then in the midst of

that journey a storm of hurricane

proportions arose and it just so related

to my everyday life that you know you

you start to do something and then you

have these storms in life and so often

in those storms then we give up so at

the end of that teaching I was actually

making my bed just doing housework at

that point I had three children and and

Dave had gone off to work that day

worked in in the engineering field and I

just sensed God speaking in my heart or

putting a desire in my heart you know to

teach the word and I felt that this

dream came to me that I was going to go

all over the world and teach the word

which of course was in the natural

totally ridiculous and so many times

when God does speak something to us or

he calls us to do something to the

natural mind it is ridiculous but truly

with God all things are possible and

I’ve actually been meditating even this

week on Ephesians 3:20 where that says

that God can do exceedingly abundantly

above and beyond all that we could ever

dare to hope ask or think through his

power that works in us and so God does

great things but he does them through

people he works with people and I had no

idea before that of ever teaching the

word or doing anything like that and I

started a Bible study and that’s kind of

the way it began I always like to share

with people that you know we did those

Bible studies for five years not five

minutes or five days or five weeks but

five long years of doing that and I

studied so hard to teach back then which

was right because I really didn’t know

anything I hadn’t been to to Bible

School I didn’t know anything about

preaching nobody’s ever taught me how to

put together a sermon I mean I I can

truly say that what I’m doing I have

been led by the Holy Spirit God really

taught you how to do what you’re doing

right and then you know as David was

saying I started this Bible studying it

it first started as a result of the

place where I worked and so I invited

these twelve ladies that worked for me I

was the office manager to come to this

Bible study

and I didn’t know how to teach the Bible

I mean I remember when God put that on

my heart I went to my pastor and I said

if somebody’s going to teach a Bible

study where would they start and what

kind of books would you use and he

recommended a Thompson chain reference

Bible and he recommended starting in the

book of John and so those are my tools

and that was where I started John

chapter 1 verse 1 how many people that

are listening right now are exactly

where you are they just want to serve

God they’re doing that Bible study

faithfully and God honors that yeah and

you know somewhere in the midst of that

I had quit my full-time job at God’s

direction to have time to study to

prepare for this ministry that I felt

like I was going to have I always had a

sensing the ministry was going to be

quite large but you never know at that

time if that’s just your imagination a

pipe dream what you want or if it’s

really going to happen however like I

said when God does captivate your heart

with something it’s it’s almost kind of

hard not to believe it you know your

mind will tell you that’s crazy or the

devil speaking to your mind will tell

you that’s crazy but I I wanted to be

prepared and I didn’t I wasn’t prepared

I didn’t know that much and so I would I

would spend a lot of time studying a lot

of times studying and I just I usually

studied things that I was having

problems with and so I really didn’t run

out of material because I had a lot of

problems you know with a lot of things

and that’s why it’s so practical that’s

why it applies to people I certainly

what what in the natural wouldn’t have

seemed like Bible teacher material would

I know international you wouldn’t but

you always had the gift to teach no no

matter what from the very beginning she

had the gift to teach and I recognized

that and got but God kept her isolated

because she was dealing with all these

internal problems you know while she was

teaching she was learning through the

word how to deal with these problems how

to grow and deal with these problems and

then she was teaching to people the

things that she encountered she would

teach to the people and you know of

course we passed up one of the areas

where she taught in short shorts when

she first started out

smoked all the time we both smoked and

finally came to a point you know when we

first started for I guess it was maybe

the first four weeks or something that

and I thought this is not right her

teaching and shark sharks and I said I

don’t think he should be teaching in

short shorts and so anyway we change

that I wouldn’t know any better past

that point got past that point and they

really were wonderful wonderful days for

us they were just they were doing some

learning days of sharing you know ginger

one of the examples that I’ve used in

the last couple of years in teaching

that I think is a great example is if

you think about when you what does it

look like when God puts a dream or a

vision in your heart whether it’s to

minister or buy a new house or to be

married or get a certain level of

education you you always see the

finished product that’s what you see and

so you have a tendency to think that

you’re just going to move right into

that and it comes in pieces and so I’ve

used the example of getting like a 5,000

piece puzzle I’ve got this big puzzle I

use and it’s got this beautiful picture

on the front of it so when you go to buy

a puzzle you buy it because you like the

picture it’s kind of like having a

vision from God right but then when you

dump all those pieces out on the table

it’s like oh my what in the world have I

gotten into and in the process it takes

a long time to get all the pieces in the

right place and you know sometimes

you’ll even try to put a piece in a

place where it doesn’t fit and so did

you have some of that oh you try

sometimes it’s just for so many things

you know you feel all these things and

sometimes you get ahead of yourself and

one of the things that happened during

that period of time which was so

valuable for the future was we grew in

faith in that time because there was $40

short you know each month of paying our

bills well whether you’re 40 dollars

short or $5,000 short you’re short so

you can’t pay your bills

unless God miraculously takes care of

them and so we learned during that

period of time eventually we learned

that God was going to take care of it no

matter what the situation was and it

wasn’t to take for grace

that he was going to do that because you

always knew that you’re a $40 shirt but

you saw him and so it was a working

experience of learning that faith that

faith in God always he always delivered

and everyone came every month the bills

were paid yeah which is a foundation of

the military today that he taught you

don’t know how to handle those finances

and and really set up that premise that

you’ve never borrowed any money for the

ministry that you’ve always paid for

what you got and and that says so much

about who this ministry is that’s that’s

more in the wisdom area that that that

area but the faith area was the area

that hey we’re short and the only way

that’s going to happen is God’s got to

come through and we had no way to get it

unless God brought it and it was

something different I mean sometimes

somebody would you know say oh here I

felt like I told me to give you $20 or

you know maybe a relative would come to

visit and stay with us for a week and

they’d leave a $50 bill for groceries

after they left our or maybe we’d get a

refund on something we weren’t expecting

I mean it was just it was really amazing

to watch God work during that period of

time you know those five years were

really foundational and yours and and

healing for you too right

and healing you know I was going through

a lot I mean Dave and I were arguing all

the time and you know don’t probably get

mad but I got mad all the time and you

know just a lot of the stories that I

tell that people laughed so hard about

now you know and then another very

important stage of our journey and I

think it is important for people to

realize that everything you do including

life is a journey and and you have

seasons and you have stages of growth

and you have dormant seasons and you

have planting seasons and you have

harvest seasons and you have seasons of

digging up fallow ground and so there’s

a lot of different seasons in our life

we have to learn how to navigate all of

those and so

one of the seasons that was very very

important was that toward the end of

this five years first of all we had felt

like I felt like at first God wanted us

to have another baby and we had at that

time three well a ten-year-old a twelve

year old and a 14 year old and so

obviously our children were old enough

then that we could go out and do things

we didn’t always have to have a

babysitter and I just started getting

this real desire to have a baby that’s

that are you sure yeah it’s like are you

kidding well you know sure you want to

start all over and I said yeah I really

do and of course you know Dave he’s I

got on board he’s easygoing he’s just

like okay that’s what you want and sure

glad I did too that’s when we had Danny

because now he he oversees all this TV

in the media and all the operational

side of the ministry our other son David

oversees all the world missions and so

now I think my gosh it’s a good thing I

listen to God because I you know we

didn’t even we didn’t know really

everything that the future held but but

it is important to realize that at the

time that I started all this I had three

teenagers and a baby yeah and so

challenging yeah I don’t really care for

it when people say well you know I can’t

do anything I’ve got kids or you know

I’ve got a baby it’s amazing how desire

overrides everything else all the

impossibility just seem to fade away

when you have a strong enough desire to

do something and so I felt like that God

had put on my heart it was time to stop

the Bible study and the word I got was

behold I do a new thing well I felt for

sure it’s time for my promotion man

we’re going to something great it’s

going to happen now and so for one year

nothing happened and that was a very

testing confusing year for me I didn’t

understand well what is going on is God

finished with me now did I make a

mistake in in stopping but so many

things we don’t understand until after

we’ve walked through them I always like

to say that we live life

or word but we only understand it

backwards and I could look back now and

I realized that during that year God

really taught me the importance or he

started teaching me it’s not that I

didn’t have any more to learn about it

of just being yourself and I because I

was insecure from all the abuse in my

life I didn’t like who I was so I was

always trying to be somebody else

whether it was my pastor’s wife are more

like Dave or you know my pastor’s wife

was sweet and you know I had this rough

exterior and or my neighbor next door

was very homemaker

you know Sodor families clothes had a

garden and so I during that year it was

like I tried to have a garden I tried to

make my family’s clothes and he’s like I

tried all these things is that God was

not anointing me far you tried everybody

else on I guess he actually did not have

the garden I had the garden I dug the

girl I wish she probably thought I’d

added Tomatoes well I was my garden and

she going she was going to can them with

her next-door neighbor and that’s the

story in itself that was hilarious and

and then she did she did so a pair of

shorts for me and that was a disaster

and a shirt she sewed the shirt inside

out or no I him the sleeve as well and

it wrong and then the Sharks had pockets

longer than the shorts and so so now

you’re the one in short choices

yeah thank you you’re the one in short

shorts I said no I cut the pockets out

cut the pockets out I should have kept

his shorts I burned him I remember they

were gray with dark gray yeah

piping around the the edges but the

vaping that’s fancy isn’t it yeah but

the whole garden story is hilarious I

tell that a lot in in conferences were

just when these tomatoes were just ready

to pick and can I mean I had all my

equipment you know this was this big

plan I went out to look at the tomatoes

the morning we were going to harvest

them and a bunch of black bug said why I

don’t know if the bugs were black but

the holes were black they had eaten

these big holes in the tomatoes and so

they were just basically destroyed and

so I quick called my neighbor who

lived right next door I mean I could

have thrown a rock and hit her house and

I said oh my gosh our Tomatoes are

destroyed bugs got in got in them they

got big holes in them and so she went

out looked at her and called me back and

said there’s nothing wrong with mine

they’re totally fine

and so of course right away I started

complaining to God well you know why did

why did my tomatoes get holes in them

and her tomatoes are still healthy and I

mean honestly I heard God so clearly say

I never told you to grow tomatoes

therefore I have no obligation to

protect your Tomatoes and what a lesson

there is in that how many people get so

frustrated because they’re trying to do

what somebody else does and it works for

that somebody else because it’s right

for them but it doesn’t work for you and

you don’t understand you feel like God

is blocking you from success and

thankfully he does because we’d spend

our lives doing things that’s not what

God wants us to do and so during that

year of doing nothing I actually was

learning the importance of not trying to

be everybody else and that was really

important for where God wanted to take

us because he didn’t he didn’t want us

to copy somebody else and go do what

they were doing when you begin ministry

1976 and the years too followed what was

expected of women then was very

different than what God was calling you

to do and say I deal with that well I

totally when I started it I wasn’t even

cognizant of the fact that women didn’t

normally do that I mean I was just so

caught up and what I felt like God was

telling me to do and it was being

successful and you know always teasing

us say I didn’t know women couldn’t

teach till people started telling me

that they couldn’t write and so in this

church that we were going to they felt

like that I wasn’t supposed to be

teaching that Dave should be teaching I

remember going out of the church one

Sunday and the pastor looking at Dave

and he said brother you should be

teaching that Bible study not your wife

and what did you think when he said that

I mean how did you well I mean I you

know

at the same time him Santa time I’m

thinking you know that you know why did

God not give me the gift waited to give

it to her you know and so I’ve got that

in me a little bit inside that well I’m

gonna do it you know and so I I tried

and it didn’t work just I didn’t have

the ability to teach and so uh always

safer for a couple weeks Dave tried to

talk and I tried not to it either one

work I wasn’t good at not talking and so

we continued to have the Bible study and

eventually left that church and went to

what they can’t what was Life Christian

Center is this still at that point where

you’re questioning you know what does

God have for me now because you’re

you’re in that year where it’s right

it’s been quiet I guess where you didn’t

know what was coming next I still had a

I still felt like God wanted to use me I

mean I still felt like I still had this

dream I was still studying we were still

struggling financially you know I was

confused all the things that that people

go through and so they asked me if I

wanted to start a women’s Bible study at

this church and I really didn’t want to

start a women’s Bible study because I

specifically felt like that God had

given me a scripture in Philippians two

that I was to hold out to all men the

Word of God so I never really felt

called just to teach women I really felt

like that the same word was for

everybody and that I was going to teach

everybody not yeah not just women and so

at first I wasn’t going to do the Bible

study and then I remember thinking well

God’s not opening up anything else this

has opened up so I probably should take

the opportunity and they advertised it a

little bit and I mean this was just a

miracle from God the first one that we

had was on a Thursday morning and what

Dave calls a little Church in the valley

which it was just a little tiny building

Church and a hundred and fifteen people

came and it was like where did all these

people come from

and it was the start of something pretty

major and it was just God it was it was

that promotion from God the five years

of the Bible study the year of doing

nothing and you know those are like

hanging on years and holding on years

those are times when Jesus has said

let’s cross over to the other side and

now you’re in the hurricane type storm

and it feels to you like Jesus is asleep

in the bottom of the boat and you don’t

know what’s going on but then you still

have this strong thing in your heart

during this time I’m still in the

engineering field and and they start

having lots of meetings at this church

and they have camp meetings and

week-long you know we are going to

church a lot I’m going to work and I’m

coming home we’re going to church and

going to work coming home going to

church and it’s just it’s a continuous

thing for a long period of time I want

to ask you I want to ask you a question

about that too because Joyce talked

about God calling her and and her having

that strong desire God obviously called

you too this is your ministry together

how did you begin to see your role in

this you’ve been told it should be you

and not her how did you begin to see

what God really had called you to do in

all of this first a first I you know for

like I said I fought with it for a

little while and then I realized that

and God really impressed upon my heart

that if you want a you want my joy my

peace and my grace then you have to do

what I’ve called you to do and so I

began to realize that that was not the

thing that I would be doing but yet I

told the guys in the engineering field

that I would not always be here working

in an engineering field eventually I was

going to be in ministry and I didn’t

know exactly what aspect of ministry I

was going to be in but I told that and

actually when I left when I left the

engineering company and began this is

further down the road but just to give a

little prefix here I

the guy said you know how long you you

know how long

you’ve been saying it and I said no he

said seven years I said oh that’s good

I said that’s God’s perfect numbers so

anyway we’ll go back to this now so so

we’re in gret on graboid McKenzie and I

don’t know what definitely my definition

for the ministry is going to be

yeah justo I’m still on the sidelines so

speaking and God’s got me there and I

know I’m not supposed to be doing

anything yet because the ministry our

aspect in ministry hadn’t started yet we

were still when our income came from

Dave you know I was teaching this Bible

study but they gave me a very small I

don’t know I think I think I initially

got like $65 a week you know and so I

did that for a long long time and then

after a while they asked me if I wanted

to come on staff at the church and the

Bible study was growing it was like 300

and then 400 450 and it actually got up

to about 500 women every Thursday

morning so it was you know quite a

substantial kind of the talk of the town

and Christendom and and there was a real

move of the spirit back then too as like

people were being touched by God in

every denomination I mean we had

Catholics Methodists Presbyterians

Baptist Pentecostals I mean just all

kinds that’s awesome

people were coming and they were

filtering through the minister did God

called her to threw that into the church

so it’s hard in the church crunch is

helping the church grow the church grew

on its own but that was happening

because helping I remember we were

driving in there for the dedication

service of the new building and God

spoke to my heart and said I’m finished

with you here now right and I thought

was that a shock for you were you well I

was kind of insulted I thought well you

know you’re finished with me I mean I

don’t build this wooden I don’t open it

I was trying to promote her she was

insulted but the thing was it’s so

interesting how we are as human beings

it’s like I wasn’t satisfied anymore I

felt like God was calling me to

something else so it’s like I wanted I

wanted to do more but I wanted to do it

through that Avenue and that just wasn’t

going to work you know I mean I remember

even going to the pastor

saying you know can I go on to the radio

station kind of write a book and and you

know he was like you know you work for

me and you’ve got to be part of this

vision and and you know so finally I

just so you were on radio at this time

one station my church the church put her

on radio he was on radio her and the

slot next to him opened up and so I

think he kind of wanted to keep the

whole slot for the church so he asked me

if I wanted yet so I was on I started on

WC b/w one 15-minute radio slot once a

week yeah that was the beginning of my

great media ministry and so then then we

God said I’m finished with you here and

so I still didn’t get finished for a

little while so yeah because she she had

soul ties and she really didn’t

recognize that it was soul ties until

somebody she asked somebody that or

somebody informed her that you know what

why are you wanting to go back to the

church all right

so when you say soul ties so like I an

emotional connection that she had you

know she had like she said she had her

own seat her own office her own little

plaque like rejoice fire you know in

their own parking place and and so that

you know and all the people that you

worked with there you know that that was

you know kind of pulling her back so God

was telling us to leave he was telling

us but I was you know I was – I was

saying you know we can’t go back we’ve

got to we’ve got to go do what God just

called us to do now because I’m not

leaving your comfort zone leaving your

security yeah sure exactly that’s what I

really felt like that God had it might

probably need to back up a little bit

you know it was like I kept getting more

and more miserable and I was less and

less interested in the meetings at the

church and the business meetings things

I used to love it was like now is just

like oh my gosh isn’t that interesting

how that changes mm-hmm what we used to

love is no longer as important to us

because God is taking us no longer image

and I didn’t realize what it was but God

was withdrawing the grace for me to be

there

and it was just basically time for me to

leave I had done what he wanted me to do

there I had learned what he wanted me to

learn there and I learned a lot there so

I went home and started a fast always

joking side decided I was going too fast

on water until I heard from God he spoke

to me in an hour I sure was glad I mean

I heard

I actually saw I don’t know how you see

words but I mean I I clearly saw that I

was to take the ministry and go north

south east and west and I got so excited

then we began to start meetings in

different places like we did we did

meetings at south east and west east st.

Louis South Santa Clara yeah in

different days of the week in different

weeks of the month you know and it was

crazy it was great on first Thursday we

were here the second when they were here

hours Monday we were here Tuesday we

were here Belleville we did Belleville

Illinois which was our East meeting we

did that every week we went every

Tuesday morning every Thursday for years

every Wednesday night somewhere else and

while we were going and doing these

meetings well what the income that came

in from those meetings we began to buy I

began to buy radios I get you were still

working you’re getting ahead of yourself

well yeah okay but those meeting ok

those meetings lasted for well started

started and we had two meetings what and

I was I was in the engineering field and

then then things started to get pretty

overwhelming because for me uh we were

we had a few people working for us we

had finished the Lord we didn’t even

know we finished the lower level of our

house off the basement of our house off

and we didn’t know that all of a sudden

ministry was going to take over our

house the lower level rouse but we

removed the ministry into what was

Danny’s room originally and then it

moved into our family room downstairs

and family room it and then it moved

into our bedroom downstairs the

duplicate the location that is over

taking you to our bedroom downstairs and

during this period of time I’m still in

the engineering field and you’re working

I’m working on kids

yeah I’m running all over the place I’ve

gotta bury me I’ve got teenagers I’m

coming back home and you know I’m

involved but I’m not involved full time

and then and then Joyce is saying this

is overwhelming I can’t handle this you

know and so I finally I told her I’m

gonna quit in six months and so finally

we got to that six months point and

that’s when the guy told me you’ve been

saying this for seven years and you’re

finally doing it and so is the first day

I start in the ministry the first day I

say okay what do you want me to do he

came downstairs and sat down at his desk

and said what do you want me to do and

and so we taught him how to do payroll

right it’s the first thing I did payroll

at first and uh and how many employees

did you have at this point

Oh maybe five Baruchel and they started

helping you with mail and things like

that mail and just we have we had a guy

that did the radio program and that was

in a closet that was actually our son’s

bedroom closet where we did our any

calls that was your studio that was our

studio we had all would come in the

calls would come in there yeah and we we

had we had phones all over the house and

so I always say it sounded like a bookie

joint or something when the phone would

ring because it would ring everywhere

you know and we had one girl that opened

mail and one girl that that duplicated

the cassette tapes and I don’t know if

they all even worked full-time but they

all had their little job choir our

employees they parked in different parts

of the street you know so it didn’t look

so suspicious and they’ve come down with

their little brown bags you know lunch

bags and come into our house and it’s

like people are thinking okay what are

you doing over there is parking in the

neighborhood later

yeah in the neighborhood and coming down

and it worked in our house no fruit this

is for I don’t know the first time we

rented the first time we decided that we

were going to go rent some office space

I mean that was like a huge or a huge

step of faith you know and I mean

everything was a huge step of faith when

Dave quit his job yeah I mean I still

remember he was making thirty two

thousand dollars a year or thirty four

thirty four thousand dollars a year and

so we’re like mean that you can imagine

I mean we needed better

yeah so God had to do something and and

our income increased verse mother coming

in from the ministry the first month

that amount of money that is miraculous

I mean it didn’t all come in but it was

like month after month in a year right

it came to that and really we just we

had a little letter that we sent out

once a month you know telling people

where we were going to be and you had

the income from the teaching tapes and

you know what a little bit came in from

the radio and you know we were still

just barely getting by and I mean some

of these people that work for us they

made fifty dollars a week and you know

60 dollars a week and he I mean just

yeah just barely so then we want to

we’re looking for space and so we go to

the Biltmore 300 and they’ve got 1,700

square feet of space well for us 1700

square feet of space look like man that

looked like a monster’s space and we

walked around in that and I said whoa

what was Ames to do with this it’s

amazing

and so we’re starting to do conferences

like further out like we go to Quincy

Illinois we go to K tirado

we go to Kansas City anywhere we could

drive we talk on we go up to Mount

Vernon any anywhere within a certain

radius you know the where we couldn’t

didn’t maybe go that far in so and I

answered all the mail back then I would

sit in my office with a little

typewriter and answer all the mail and I

would set up all the conferences all the

conferences so I was doing the

conference’s I was doing for back then I

by then I think I the payroll somebody

else was doing a payroll yeah I was

doing the conference’s and I was buying

all the radio time I was contacting all

the managers in the beginning stages

that was growing there were more right

well here we had ones we had meetings of

100 people 70 people 150 people

I mean you can look at my journals from

back then and I just believe in God that

anybody would come and scared out of my

wits half the time that nobody would

come I mean you talk about a journey of

faith in us I mean everything from the

finances we needed to the people coming

to God providing the employees we needed

it was I mean it was just we needed

you know we needed to get on radio

stations and so the we were under one

radio stations w CB W and then we we

needed to bio the radio stations and so

I bought a pack of six radio stations I

didn’t know how good these radio

stations were well fortunately a couple

of more pretty good the one was the

sister state didn’t buy the stations he

bought time on this a time on the

stations through the station managers

well as time went by I began to learn

how to research stations and one of the

ways that our research stations was I

got other ministries that were on radio

there magazines and found out what

stations they were on and how long they

were on them and so I if they were on

them in a long period of time I knew

they were probably pretty good station

yeah that’s right that’s pretty wise

yeah and so I started and I got to know

all the managers and talk with all the

managers and if a station didn’t produce

within a certain amount of time then I

would after you know in the beginning of

stages is very difficult to get on the

station because nobody knew Joyce and so

I had to send them demo tapes and you

know they just put him under desk they

wouldn’t play him and it once in a while

I’d be able to get on the station well

if I got on the station and you know it

was great you know the station that I

wanted to get on and so eventually it

started word got around that she was a

good teacher and so it was easier to get

on the station so you know then I could

call stations and get on them or if he’d

say well you know we’re on this station

they’re like oh well if you’re on there

and so it was easier to get on stations

and so so we grew all the way up to 150

stations and you know during that period

of time all we did was work we did

anything else but work we worked we

worked we worked we were out every night

doing a meeting somewhere we were trying

we were sitting on the office all day

and you might wonder where our kids are

at during all this time so just for the

sake of people listening I don’t want

everybody to think we just abandoned our

kids and ignored them you know we we

still took good care of our children

they were three of them were in high

school one of them had graduated and he

went off to Bible School in Florida and

then he eventually came back to work

with us and and we had our little boy

who you know we talked about was the

baby earlier and he went to school at

one of the Christian schools and so I’d

get him up in the morning get him

take school go pick him up after school

do homework go do you know me is the

midst of life with all yeah yeah and I

doing what everybody does and when when

we were traveling we did have somebody

that offered to help with our kids but

we didn’t travel for long periods of

time then we’d go out and come back or

be gone two days and come back and then

we took him with us a lot as much as we

could

a lot of our trip for one day we go out

we do the meeting when we come back

that’s a night he’ll do the meeting that

evening and drive back that same night

which was long days I mean you’re

retired when you got back so is all this

is growing and you’re you’re watching

God really really feeding this were you

always in agreement was it always not

necessarily well I would think there

would be some yeah big decisions to be

made there was there there was but I

mean there was a really good flow to it

because she did things and the ministry

and I did things in the ministry and you

know I was I was setting up all the

conferences I was all the hotel

ballrooms I had to call hotels and make

sure that we had ballrooms and a lot of

times when you know I mean we couldn’t

fly to these places or drive to these

places so we’d have to somehow find out

what were the best hotels that we

couldn’t go see them ahead of time so we

know once in a while we’d get a hotel

the shingles were falling off or the

roofer had some awful place one where

the where the air conditioning wasn’t

working and a guy was in the middle of

the meeting he was climbing up and up

climbing up in the ceiling which is

about 20 feet high you know trying to

fix the air conditioning and one where

where it was raining and water was

coming down by the curtain where she was

teaching it was just a lot of a lot of

excitement we had we probably had

hundreds and hundreds of meetings that

were between 100 and 200 people yeah you

know I was so busy teaching and studying

to teach that that between that and and

I probably dealt with most of the people

issues in the office so dealing with all

that higher

in firing organization that kind of

stuff and he was pretty busy with the

radio and all the whole gist setting

everything the logistics and the the

buying all the equipment buying buying

everything that we needed yeah

everything that we bought over the years

everything we bought when I was in

charge was I would not allow Department

they have a budget because I didn’t want

a bunch of bells and whistles I wanted

to do I wanted to buy things that we

were actually needed and so that we

would use the money wise and we saved

and paid cash we have requisitions they

would present me with requisitions and I

would determine do we really need this

you know and so during that period of

time it kept us you know to where we

would not you know waste money and so on

you know God really bought well it was

smaller he could do that I mean nothing

was spent that he didn’t put his

initials on it and there was times where

I even had to stop spending period

because of if it looked like we were

getting ahead of ourselves to where we

did weren’t gonna have the finances I

wasn’t gonna allow that to happen so I

would stop spending period for a period

of time until we got caught up when did

God give you those basic tenets of what

the ministry needed to be all about that

if you would stay faithful in these

areas again the very beginning when when

we just after I left my job at Life

Christian Center I mean I so clearly

remember God put in my heart if you will

three things I’m going to tell you and

if you do them I’ll be able to bless you

keep the strife out of your life which

even meant really at home I mean Dave

and I early on learned that we couldn’t

fight behind the scenes and be having

trouble and expect things to be good out

in public you know it just doesn’t work

I mean your life as a whole and you

can’t be one thing here in something

else

great somewhere else and do what you do

with excellence which I it’s interesting

that God said that to me because it was

not any it wasn’t anything that I’d ever

pondered or thought about you know but

do what you do with excellence and

that’s not extravagance but it does mean

to do the best

can and everything that you do and then

be a person of integrity don’t play

games with the money that passes through

your hands and always do what you tell

people that you’re going to do and you

know those things are not always easy to

do you know you have to it it was a good

thing that God did speak those to us so

clearly because even just keeping the

strife out of your life you know

sometimes you feel more like arguing

than you do have in peace and yet to be

faithful to that word that God spoke we

knew we needed to stay in peace and and

you know the price of it we knew the

price of anything like that ain’t it

that’s not to say we we did never happen

but if it did happen you learned your

lesson and you know the consequences of

it and you know as especially with Joyce

you know when she was teaching she just

it would affect the anointing in science

could associate you know that could not

happen you know well then we have seen

so many teachers preachers have

integrity issues we see so many people

be one thing in the pulpit and another

thing somewhere else and and we know

that that’s not what God wants for any

of us in our lives no matter no matter

what we are no matter who who we deal

with but those things in your life have

really been building blocks or their

ministry and so many reasons that God

has blessed the way I can honestly say

that Dave and I both have a healthy

reverential fear of God which is

something the Bible says is the

beginning of all wisdom I don’t mean

like afraid of God in the wrong way

but I do know that God is God and that

he means what he says and I’m also very

aware that everything that we’re doing

is totally dependent on God and I mean

he could trust me takes a lot longer to

build something that it can take to come

down if God doesn’t keep we’ve seen them

supporting it and come down you know get

strong strong grow strong real fast and

then fall down yes

yeah that’s a lesson in itself I mean

that teaches you know you know God’s in

control and

do things his way and he’ll bless you

don’t do things his way and you’re in

trouble you’re living dangerously and so

and you know I thank God that we grew I

didn’t thank God while we were growing

so slowly that was very hard but I look

back now and I and I I’m thankful that

God didn’t let me do what I wanted to

when I wanted to do it because although

I had a gift I was still very much in

need of developing more godly character

and that’s where a lot of people do make

a mistake they get an opening to go out

and do something because they’re gifted

and you know as leaders we can even be

guilty of putting somebody in a position

long before they’re ready for it

spiritually and it really is just like a

disaster waiting to happen

and so it took a long time I mean a long

time and a lot of hard work next coming

up here pretty soon I will have been

teaching the word 40 years so the things

we’re talking about happened 40 years

ago and 35 years ago and 30 years ago

and and it’s just like I mean we could

sit here and talk for months and months

and months about all the different

things that happened and the the

challenges and the good times and the

scary times and the joyous times and

raising kids in the midst of all this

and it’s it’s been a been a wonderful

journey and yet at the same time a very

challenging one I think a lot you know

my motto was slow and solid fast and

fragile God gave me that years and years

ago and I think many people would look

at our ministry and say it’s been

phenomenally fast growth and it they

only see you know the explosive growth

of years after we went on television

they don’t see the pre years or their

foundational years that created the

foundation for the ministry to stand on

and you know the N if people have been

in the year in ministry 40 years and

they haven’t had growth like that then

it

looks like explosive growth and you know

God’s got a different plan for everybody

and so we were we were black were

blessed to be doing what we’re doing and

so we don’t take it for granted and one

of the things that we said in the very

beginning was we don’t want our ministry

to be cloned after somebody else’s

ministry we want it to be what the Holy

Spirit wants us to do we want to follow

the lead in the Holy Spirit let us let

him show us exactly what we do or

supposed to do we didn’t know what all

that meant but he did over the years he

would show us this show us that show us

something else in and all that put

together so you’re getting more and more

people at your meetings they’re growing

you’re traveling further and further out

you’re on radio when did you begin to

think television is the next logical

step well we’re actually uh we’re on our

meetings had grown from 200 to 400 to

500 700 and finally in Tulsa we had a

meeting while we’re on radio of a

thousand people and I mean that was

amazing for us to have a meeting with

thousand people we had never had

anything like that and during this time

we had a broad idea of going on

television and we thought we’re going to

go on television and so we went on some

charter stations and you know at that

studio and what we could do it filming

and it was a situation where Joyce was

going to ask questions and and the flip

the first television program was going

to be on fear where she was going to ask

questions of people actually people from

our ministry and they were going to

share on you know how they experienced

fear and how they dealt with fear well

Joyce would ask the questions and then

she’d answer the questions and the

people just step there they didn’t do

not have it I was the very good at

interview and so obviously that did not

go over big and it was a bright idea

what six God’s we got one piece of mail

yeah it wasn’t God telling us to go on

television we just had a broad idea we

don’t do it and obviously it didn’t work

well we were probably starting to sense

something from God but just got way

ahead of the timing definitely got way

ahead of timing and then then

we’re having our meetings at a place

called should two hearts banquet Center

in st. Louis and that grew to about 400

people and I’m thinking these meetings

are getting big and Joy’s the teachings

are tremendous teachings but they’re

gone forever

if nobody can see them you know they’re

getting them on consent and so they’re

yeah we were recording

you know recording the more we weren’t

we didn’t have any video and so I went

out and bought a camera I decided I’m

going to go out and buy a camera and I

spent a pretty good sizable amount of

money to buy a camera and usually when

we bought something like that Joyce and

I discussed it but I thought you know I

got to get this camera and so there she

was doing something and I needed to get

it right away and so I got the camera

night old and she said why did you do I

got aggravated at night I said why she

said why did you do that and I said well

I said what you’re teaching is gone

forever if we don’t capture it on we

didn’t even have anybody to run the

camera we didn’t even know we were gonna

do with it so we had a camera well we

had a camera we had somebody from Life

Christian Center came over and I went

there to run it Ryland volunteer to ruin

and little did I know what God was up to

three weeks later I’m in the bathroom

getting ready to go to the office and

all of a sudden the Lord opens up my

heart to sense the hurts of the world I

guess the way he was sensed a little bit

you know I’m sobbing I’m just just out

of out of the blue I had a blue I mean

just out of blue I’m getting ready to go

to the office and I’m sobbing and I’m

thinking and God says I prepared you all

this time to go on television and you

know it’s like I’m vision and you know

he’s speaking to me inside and I’m

thinking television there’s no way we

can go on television I you know that

this cost too much there’s no way we can

do that and I see this hand on a spigot

and he said if I if I turn this off you

can’t even do what you’re doing now but

if I turn it up you can do everything

that I asked you do it and I’m thinking

God’s going to provide for it and so I

realized that God’s going to provide for

it and so I told she came in the

bathroom and I told her I said

I need to talk to you and she said can

we do this later I need to go to the

office I said you know we need to talk

now and I said God has told me we need

to go on television we need to do it and

she bore witness I share with her

everything that happened to me and so

that’s when we decided we’re going to go

on television and and she she bought

with witness with it and you know we

didn’t we didn’t know how we’re going to

get the money so we decided well we’re

going to send out we had a mailing list

of 70,000 people that at that time and

we we thought well we will send out to

our mailing list we figured we need we’d

need a half a million dollars to start

that’s the only way we could start

because we needed to build a studio we

needed to you know do different things

and we need to have another camera and

so we sent out to our mailing list and

exactly a million a half million dollars

came in and so you know we didn’t even

know we needed a producer at that time

we have we were so ignorant of what we

were supposed to do and how we were

supposed to do it but God let us

step-by-step introduced us to people and

you know finally we learned you know we

need a producer we learned we need to do

this we need to do this and the first

television program that we filmed it was

so primitive that you think how in the

world would anybody even watch this

because it looked like we had a shot

well it was a shower curtain but a

shower curtain behind Joyce we’re in

this room where they had sprayed

insulation and it was falling off the

ceiling the sprayed insulation hanging

down and falling off the one camera one

camera and we shot this we bought we

bought ten stations and we decide to go

on weekly at first that’s the only thing

we could afford so we decided to go in

weekly and we did that for about six

months and we thought it’s doing good

it’s doing all right

and I I said well why don’t we go on I

want we go on daily on some of these

stations so we we said okay we’re going

to go on daily on some of these stations

so we did and what we did that it had

just exploded and with within a month or

two months every station that we went on

paid for itself and was was surplus so

we could go on more stations and we were

just buying up time like crazy and going

on

stations and the mail in the the

response was overwhelming and so this

this was the beginning of the television

ministry and it was it was just beyond

anything we could ever expect up to

today where you’re reaching yeah to some

thirds of the world so many potential

people and and we hear stories every day

of people whose lives have been

completely turned around hearing his

word through your teaching when you look

at those forty years that are behind you

and and what you’re seeing today just

the gratitude just overflow do you just

feel overwhelmed sometimes he actually

isolates us from seeing the greatness of

the ministry yeah he and we’re thankful

for that because we don’t we don’t need

to hear all how great we are or anything

because we know it’s God in right

it’s His grace that has really given us

the ability to it not only to to do what

we’re doing but also to not be

your trowel or haughty or proud or think

that we’ve done anything because we know

it’s it’s everything by him and he

started at all and he can stop it

instantly if he wants to and so we’re

basically keeping in our

pedal-to-the-metal as long as he wants

us to and while we’re in this world

because this is just a temporary

situation and we want to take as many

with us as we can I actually feel like

sometimes this may sound odd but I

almost feel like I’m two different

people you know like I’m Joyce Meyer and

then I’m Joyce Meyer and I mean you

actually almost it just takes so much

grace to do that much work that it’s

like it’s almost not like you doing I

mean you are doing it but God is so

involved that you’re so aware that if it

wasn’t him but there’s no way that you

could ever pull it off I mean like I

said you know I’m getting tired just

listening to us tell everything that we

did

and I mean there’s no way to describe

how hard we worked the things we went

through in the midst of that I had

breast cancer had never breast removed I

had a hysterectomy

I couldn’t take hormones because of

having had the cancer I went through the

change of life early I had migraine

headaches for 10 years we’re raising

kids we’re raising teenagers we’re going

through all the same stuff that

everybody else goes through with their

kids

you know we had kids getting married

plus whatever plus we’re hiring 110

people each year plus were building a

building or building a building that the

building that we’re building you know in

the process of designing the building I

I wanted to build so much the building

so big and then I was going to

structurally I was getting making it so

I could add a floor onto it and spread

the wings out on it and we’re into we’re

into the plans almost done with the

plans and I realized we’re growing so

fast we’ve got them we’ve got to build a

whole building so we scrapped the plans

and we redraw the plans to do the whole

building at one time we were going to

build 75,000 square foot we end up build

150,000 square foot at one time right

off the bat that’s a little far away

from the 1,700 square feet we were

afraid the rent yeah

how will you fill all that space that we

didn’t know how we’re going to fill it

all up and Dave did all that building

stuff you know from working in the

engineering field he was good at all

that and I really didn’t I mean I didn’t

get involved really in any of that

because I was just running all over

creation teaching of course he went to

everything you know that we did and I

just I had this growing desire in me to

help people help people help people help

people help people and so in addition to

all the television way way back like in

the very beginning like 30 years ago we

started setting aside money to help the

poor with God put that in our heart and

so we started even right here in our own

city help him do inner city ministry and

contributing to other people that had

inner city ministries too you know and

then we started different missions and

got involved with different missionaries

and we would support different people

that had different works around the

world and so now you know we’re involved

in I don’t know probably 150 nations and

I don’t even know how many different out

reaches with

orphanages and feeding programs and yeah

water wells and schools it’s such an

integral part of the ministry well it’s

very very important I mean other than my

teaching that’s probably the most

important thing to me is just being able

to to help people you know Jesus always

he always taught the word and he helped

hurting people and so you help people

with the word but you also need to help

them in a practical way like I say a lot

of times many people are hurting so bad

that they couldn’t even hear the word if

you didn’t help them first with their

practical situation and you know it’s

been our great privilege to do what

we’re doing I thank God that very few

days go by that I don’t thank God for

letting me teach the word and yes it’s

been a lot of hard work and probably one

to give up a million times in the

process and you know when you’re in the

public eye like we are you you get

judged you get criticized you have you

know people that aren’t so kind but in

them even with all that we’ve met so

many amazingly wonderful people whose

lives have been changed by the word that

you know the few who caused you problems

are really nothing compared to all the

ones that that you get to help and so

you know our desire is is to continue

doing what we’re doing in some form or

fashion until Jesus takes us home people

ask all the time are you thinking about

retiring or what are you going to retire

and I don’t know how you retire from a

call on your life it’s not like not like

having a job and so now at certain age

you retire I mean I just want to do I

mean we have to make changes we have to

keep making adjustments you know can’t

work as hard as we used to don’t don’t

need to don’t want to always say I don’t

work harder I work smarter and of course

you know in the myths

I’ve written 100 and probably 15 books

now and so that was another homework

project that was going on in the midst

of all these other things is writing all

these books and you know I really want

to leave a hundred big solid books as a

legacy to the body of Christ and so

we’re still working on them and

hopefully out of all the ones that we

have we can the very best will remain

because a lot of the books that I read

now are two and three hundred years old

and they’ve just helped me tremendously

so I hope a long time after I’m gone

if Jesus Terry’s that people still be

continuing to to read my books you do

have a lot more time ahead of you who

knows where God is going to take all

this yeah I don’t I’m not quitting or

slowing down you know yeah we’re we’re

still running full throttle we’re you

know like Joe says we’re not working

harder but smarter and you learn over a

period of time what’s the best way to do

things to accomplish the most well it

really is that authenticity I think that

so many people are drawn to and in the

two of you and and in the ministry

because I mean hanging out with both of

you is just like hanging out with Lucy

and Desi and you’re hilarious for one

thing you’re just you’re just yourselves

you’re very real and you just have a lot

of fun in what you do you guys have a

great time we do yeah we’ve got our own

little you know after almost forty nine

years of marriage you develop your own

little method of a little quirky mother

working old methods of getting along and

I tell people all the time I don’t know

what I preach if I wasn’t married today

because he gives me an opportunity to

apply every message that I’ve ever

preached and it’s amazing the things

that people fight about when they’re

young that you laugh about yeah when you

when you get older but I do know that

it’s very important that we remember

where we came from and that it is God

doing this I’m very you know obviously

we work hard and we’re partners with God

and I do believe that a lot of people

get themselves in trouble because the

more successful they become the more

they begin to take liberties that they

have no business taking and one of the

things that God has taught me over the

years it is extremely important to him

as how we treat people and I know that I

fail miserably at times and always

treating people the way that I should

but I just think that that really

supports the anointing on your life

I think if you if God anoints you to do

something if you want to maintain that

anointing you need that to keep the

strife out of your life to be excellent

to walk with integrity and you really

need to to walk in love and treat people

properly it’s a big part of your legacy

I mean it really is what I know sure

both of you want to leave behind you

mentioned the books leaving that

teaching um what else is important to

you that you’re building now that you

want to leave behind for generations to

come

well you know people always always

always ask me well what’s your vision

now you know and I think that I’m one of

the blessed people that can say I’m

actually I am actually doing what God

put in my heart I feel like that I’m the

vision that he gave me is being

fulfilled every single day and I really

just want to help more and more people I

really want people to always say I want

Jesus to be famous not that he’s not but

I want to do my part too yeah make him

more famous and it’s just so important

that we represent him right out in the

world and to teach people how to do that

consistency being a Christian is about

so much more than just going to church

somewhere on a Sunday morning and then

going home and perhaps acting like

everybody else out in the world we do

need to realize that we’re in the world

but not of it and that doesn’t mean that

we can’t enjoy the world and have fun

but there has to be some sort of a

separation between God’s people and and

people in the world we can’t just blend

in and and act like everybody else so I

love teaching people things about

spiritual maturity I love to teach them

that God loves them and about the grace

of God and the mercy of God and all

those things but I’ve always had a bent

in my teaching towards spiritual

maturity and growing up and it’s just

really important to me that I always

have a word from God for the place that

I’m at I don’t ever just go take a

message out of a drawer and go somewhere

and teach I still study really hard for

for what I’m doing and so I just want to

keep helping people

I just want to keep doing more and more

of of what I’m doing where our program

is aired now in about 85 different

languages and and our son just told us

the other day that within another year

it’s going to be pressing 100 and our

books are translated in over a hundred

languages and so I’m thrilled about what

I see but I’m even more thrilled about

what I don’t see which is more than what

I do see and like Dave said you know God

God gives us enough to keep us

encouraged but not so much that we get

full of ourselves and that’s that’s a

dangerous thing you know we have to

really keep in mind that God doesn’t

share his glory with anybody and he’ll

let us work with him and partner with

him but God does get all the glory

another thing I think is that we enjoy

the ministry in doing ministry we enjoy

our private life we enjoy each other and

we enjoy our children every facet of our

life we enjoy and I think that gives you

a balance of life you know to be able to

do that not just to yeah some people are

just stuck in maybe what they do and not

the other facets of their life and each

part of our life is important and if

they can enjoy each part of their life

and enjoy each other especially when

when people are married I mean if they

can enjoy each other

and allow each other to be themselves

you know not not try and make them

something that they don’t need to be or

you want them to be but along the beat

m7i both have a lot of joy in our

relationship you know he I’m not a

sports person he goes to a lot of

sporting events he plays a lot of golf

you know he lets me do the things that

that I enjoy you know sometimes I want

to go off somewhere for a week or two by

myself just to study and pray and just

you know sometimes just be by myself

because I am around a lot of people all

the time and he’s fine with that he’s

not the least bit insecure and there’s

nothing really that we want we have 11

grandchildren two great-grandchildren

four wonderful children two great

son-in-law to daughter-in-laws and each

other and we’re just pretty happy and

content they’re very blessed

you obviously worked hard god blessed

abundantly but you had a lot of people

behind you also building this ministry

let’s talk a little bit about the the

partners role that they have had in all

of this as well how important is that it

wouldn’t have happened otherwise well

you can’t you know Joyce Meyer

ministries my name gets to be on it but

I have my part I do the teaching the

writing the preaching some management

stuff not even as much of that now as I

used to but we’ve got wonderful leaders

in the ministry we’ve got our sons who

work very hard in the ministry both of

our son and laws work in the ministry

and they do a phenomenal job I mean

really our two sons David and Danny

pretty much run all the day-to-day stuff

now which is so different than the way

it was thirty even 20 years ago when we

were so involved but then we have our

ministry partners who financially

support the ministry and every one of

them is very important whether they give

a small amount every month or our large

amount every month and we need them

we’re all partners together and doing

everything that we do and and a partner

is someone who is part of and you know

also you’re a part all these people that

they can’t see right now that are

running all this equipment that’s

putting this together

they’re all apart you know all the

people who answer the phones are apart

we’ve got offices in about 15 different

countries and they’re all apart

everybody is a part of doing so really I

mean when you think about it how could

it possibly be anything other than God

how could you how could you keep

something like this up and running you

know the Bible says that that God

maintains the whole earth so when you

think about he keeps everything balanced

you know and we’re just one ministry but

God still has to hold us up and keep

everything going or it just it just

wouldn’t work and so I were very

consciously aware of that appreciate all

the partners we have whether it’s

somebody who works for us or somebody’s

support

or somebody prays for us or whatever

they do we’re all part of it

each speech person is an integral part

of the ministry uh for the ministry to

be as huge as it is the day and is doing

doing all the things that is doing with

a course without the partners it would

be a very small ministry it would not go

very far the partners actually project

the ministry throughout the world

throughout the United States and

throughout the world without them the

ministry could would be you know with us

just doing meetings and going places and

you know made doing conferences are

selling even some products we might do

15% of what we’re doing today but the

partners that actually project it to the

ends of the earth and the more partners

we have the more we can do and I pray

for that all the time because there are

so many people in the world that are

hurting oh my gosh our society is so

messed up and it’s not just it’s not

just in America it’s basically

everywhere and we really we need to all

bond together and to use the time that

we have to really try to help as many

people as we possibly can I mean people

are there’s so much deception and so

many false religions and and so many

people that think they’ve tried God and

he hasn’t helped them and really they’ve

just tried some form of religion that

really hasn’t brought life to them and

so the the word that we’re being able to

get out through radio through satellite

through television through printed

material is we’re just all very

privileged to be part of this and when I

think about the things that we could be

doing and this is what we get to do it’s

it’s pretty amazing and it is hard work

but it’s rewarding hard work and so I’m

anxious to see what all God does the

future I want to see more miracles and

signs and wonders and miraculous things

take place and I’m pleased to be part of

whatever God wants to do