Answering Life’s Hard Questions with Lisa Harper | Joyce Meyer’s Talk It Out Podcast | Episode 84

What tough questions are on your mind these days? Chances are, we talked through at least one of them in this episode. So many of you sent in such good amazing, meaningful questions for us to answer that we decided to call in reinforcements: Joyce and the lovely Lisa Harper!

GINGER: AS I READ THESE
QUESTIONS, THERE’S SO MUCH

PAIN IN THESE QUESTIONS.

AND SO, GOD KNOWS THAT IT’S
NOT SOMETHING AS SURFACE-Y,

AS THIS ONE VERSE.

SO MUCH MORE OF IT IS KNOWING
THE HEART OF GOD FOR OUR PAIN.

HI FRIENDS.

WELCOME TO JOYCE MEYER’S
TALK IT OUT PODCAST,

WHERE MY FRIENDS AND I TALK
ABOUT GOD’S WORD

AND THE REAL STUFF OF LIFE,
AND WE HOLD NOTHING BACK.

I’M GINGER STACHE,
WITH ERIN CLULEY, JAI,

AND OF COURSE, JOYCE MEYER.

WE’RE ALL IN DIFFERENT
STAGES OF LIFE.

A YOUNG CAREER WOMAN,
AND MOM TO TWO SWEET KIDDOS.

AN ACCOMPLISHED SONGWRITER
FACING AN UNEXPECTED,

NEW LIFE’S JOURNEY.

A LEADER, CREATIVE, AN AUTHOR
WITH A HEART FOR ADVENTURE.

AND A WORLD-RENOWNED,
BIBLE TEACHER WHOSE PERSONAL

STORY HAS IMPACTED MILLIONS.

AND THERE’S YOU,
BECAUSE SOMETIMES,

YOU JUST NEED TO TALK ABOUT
LIFE WITH YOUR GIRLFRIENDS.

SO, CONSIDER YOURSELF ONE
OF US AND LET’S TALK IT OUT.

HEY FRIENDS, YOU ARE GONNA
WANT TO RUSH RIGHT INTO THIS

ROOM BECAUSE THIS IS QUITE
A GROUP OF FRIENDS

AND YOU’RE ONE OF US.

WE’RE GONNA HAVE SO MUCH FUN.

TODAY, WE ARE ANSWERING
LIFE’S HARD QUESTIONS

TO THE BEST OF OUR ABILITY.

GOD’S GONNA HELP US.

THAT’S THE WHOLE POINT.

BUT THESE ARE THINGS THAT
WE ALL ASK.

WE’VE GOT JOYCE, AND JAI,
AND ERIN, AND WE HAVE

LISA HARPER WITH US.

LADIES: YAY!

LISA: SO HAPPY TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU ALL.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

GINGER: YOU KNOW, WE STARTED
THINKING, “OKAY, IF WE’RE

GONNA HAVE LISA HARPER
AND JOYCE TOGETHER,

WE’RE GONNA ASK…

LISA: LISA HARPER
IS GONNA BE MUTE.

IS WHAT’S GONNA HAPPEN.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

GINGER: WE’RE GONNA
THE ASK BIG QUESTIONS.

SO, WE GOT ALL OF THESE FROM
SOCIAL MEDIA.

SO, YOU HAVE ASKED THESE
QUESTIONS AND THEY’RE

THE ONES THAT YOU WOULD EXPECT.

THEY’RE THE THINGS THAT WE
STRUGGLE AND GRAPPLE WITH,

IN LIFE.

SO, BEFORE WE–LIKE, START
EVEN WITH THE FIRST QUESTION,

LET ME ASK YOU–THIGHS–ASK
YOU THOUGHTS–LET’S NOT TALK

ABOUT THIGHS.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

JOYCE: TALK ABOUT THIGHS?

JAI: WE WERE JUST TALKING
ABOUT STRETCHY PANTS BEFORE.

GINGER: WE WERE.

WE WERE.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

GINGER: ASK YOU GUYS–THAT’S
THE INDIANA IN ME, COMING OUT,

CALLING EVERYBODY, “YOU GUYS.”
A LITTLE BIT ABOUT

THE FOUNDATION OF WHAT
WE’RE GONNA BE TALKING ABOUT

BECAUSE AS WE’RE LOOKING
AT THESE QUESTIONS, THE FIRST

THING, I THINK, WE HAVE
TO UNDERSTAND IS: WHERE

DO YOU EVEN BEGIN TO LOOK
FOR ANSWERS FOR THINGS

THIS LARGE?

WHERE ARE WE GONNA FIND
THIS KINDA STUFF?

JOYCE: WELL, I THINK
THE WORD OF GOD REALLY

HAS THE ANSWER TO EVERY
QUESTION IN LIFE.

IT’S JUST A MATTER OF KNOWING
WHERE TO FIND ‘EM.

AND SOMETIMES, KNOWING HOW
TO PUT THINGS TOGETHER.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN’T ALWAYS
GET AN ANSWER JUST PULLING

ONE SCRIPTURE OUT.

ACTUALLY, YOU CAN GET
THE BIBLE TO SAY ALMOST

ANYTHING IF YOU DO THAT.

LISA: YOU SURE CAN.

JOYCE: SO, YOU HAVE
TO INTERPRET THE WORD OF GOD

IN LIGHT OF THE WORD.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT THE MORE
EXPERIENCE YOU HAVE WITH GOD,

THE MORE YOU LEARN
TO UNDERSTAND THINGS.

I LIKE TO SAY, “WE LIVE LIFE
FORWARD, BUT WE UNDERSTAND

IT BACKWARD.”
THERE’S SO MANY THINGS WHEN

I’M GOING THROUGH THEM,
THAT I DON’T UNDERSTAND.

THEY DON’T MAKE SENSE.

AND I WAS READING A BOOK THIS
MORNING, THE TEACHING WAS

ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT
IT IS TO KEEP BELIEVING.

THAT WE GO THROUGH SO MANY
THINGS IN LIFE THAT WE DON’T

UNDERSTAND THAT SEEM UNFAIR,
THAT DON’T SEEM TO MAKE

ANY SENSE.

AND HE ACTUALLY,
SAID SOMETHING THAT I THOUGHT

WAS PRETTY STRONG.

HE SAID, “ACTUALLY UNBELIEF
IS THE WORST SIN.”

THAT GOD, ABOVE ALL ELSE,
WANTS US TO BELIEVE HIM.

AND SO MANY PEOPLE,
THEY BELIEVE UNTIL THEY HAVE

TO APPLY IT, AND THEN THEY
DON’T BELIEVE ANYMORE.

AND WE’RE GONNA TRY TO ANSWER,
HARD TO ANSWER QUESTIONS,

BUT TO BE HONEST,
GOD LOVES A GOOD MYSTERY.

ERIN: HE SURE DOES.

GINGER: THAT’S A GREAT WAY
TO PUT IT.

JOYCE: AND IF YOU DON’T
LIKE MYSTERY, YOU’RE NOT

GONNA LIKE HANGING OUT WITH
GOD, BECAUSE THERE’S JUST

A LOT OF THINGS THAT WE GO
THROUGH IN LIFE THAT WE DON’T

UNDERSTAND, AND WON’T
UNDERSTAND, UNTIL WE GET

TO HEAVEN WHERE WE’RE GONNA
KNOW EVERYTHING HE KNOWS.

AND SO, WE’RE GONNA
DO OUR BEST HERE.

LISA: I LOVE THAT YOU
EMPHASIZED THAT, MS. JOYCE.

I WAS READING, PACKER–
J.I. PACKER, RECENTLY.

AND HE SAID THAT ONE OF THE–
“ONE OF THE GRIEFS OF MODERN

SOCIETY IS WE’VE CEASED
TO BE AWED BY GOD.”

YOU KNOW, WE’VE MADE
HIM A COPILOT.

HE’S NOT A COPILOT.

HE’S CREATOR, REDEEMER.

BUT HE SAID, “IF YOU DON’T
HAVE A SENSE OF WONDER,

THEN YOU NEED TO BE REVIVED.”
THERE SHOULD BE A LITTLE BIT

OF SHOCK AND AWE.

I DON’T WANT A PERFECTLY
KNOWABLE GOD.

I WANNA CLOSE GOD.

BUT IF I–MY DINKY MIND CAN
FULLY COMPREHEND GOD,

THAT’S A SMALL GOD.

I WANNA GOD THAT’S BIGGER
THAN ME AND MY CIRCUMSTANCES.

JOYCE: WELL,
IF WE UNDERSTOOD EVERYTHING,

WE WOULDN’T EVEN GOD.

LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.

THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT.

JOYCE: WE NEED HIM
FOR THE TIMES WHEN NOTHING

MAKES ANY SENSE, AND NOTHING
SEEMS TO FIT TOGETHER.

BUT THAT’S WHERE YOUR
FAITH IS TESTED.

THERE’S SO MANY
THINGS THAT WE THINK,

WE BELIEVE, AND WE THINK,
WE’VE GOT SO MUCH FAITH,

WE THINK WE’RE SO STRONG.

BUT I DON’T THINK ANY OF US
REALLY TRULY KNOW EVEN

OURSELVES UNTIL WE’RE TESTED.

LISA: RIGHT, I AGREE.

JOYCE: SO, A LOT
OF THE TESTS THAT WE GO THROUGH,

ARE TO HELP YOU MEET YOURSELF
AND SEE WHERE YOUR

WEAKNESSES ARE.

SO, YOU CAN THEN, WORK WITH
THE HOLY SPIRIT TO GET

STRENGTHENED IN THOSE AREAS.

JAI: SOME OF THE BIGGEST
QUESTIONS I’VE HAD,

ESPECIALLY, THESE PAST COUPLE
OF YEARS, THOSE HAVE BEEN

THE THINGS THAT I’VE STRUGGLED
WITH THE MOST IS MAINTAINING

MY BELIEF THAT I’VE KNOWN
MY ENTIRE LIFE.

BUT ALSO, THE OTHER THING
YOU SAID, LIKE THE ANSWERS

ARE IN THE WORD.

BUT SOMETIMES, TO ME, AND
THIS COULD BE MY IMMATURITY,

YOU KNOW, I GOT THAT.

BUT–I ALMOST FELT LIKE THAT
WAS ALMOST TOO SIMPLE

OF AN ANSWER FOR THE GRAVITY
OF THE PRESSURE I WAS FEELING,

FROM THE PRESSURE, YOU KNOW,
FROM THE–FROM THE DEEP,

DEEP QUESTIONS THAT I HAD.

LIKE, IT’S LIKE–I ALMOST
FELT LIKE–WHICH HAS, ALMOST

NOT DELAYED MY HEALING
PROCESS, BUT IT’S DEFINITELY

MADE IT, YOU KNOW,
A LITTLE TURBULENT.

BECAUSE–I JUST LIKE–IT’S
GOTTA BE SOMETHING MORE

THAN JUST THIS.

THIS FEE–WE WERE TALKING
ABOUT IT EARLIER WITH

ALL THE BIBLE STORIES,
JOB, AND YOU KNOW.

LIKE, IT’S LIKE, I DON’T WANNA
GO TO THAT RIGHT NOW.

LIKE, IT SEEMS TOO SIMPLE
AND TOO EASILY.

SO, I CAN UNDERSTAND HOW
PEOPLE STILL HAVE QUESTIONS,

ESPECIALLY NOW, LIKE GOING
THROUGH SUCH A HARD FEW

YEARS, YOU KNOW, LIKE–
LISA: GLOBALLY AND

NATIONALLY AND PERSONALLY.

JAI, THOUGH, WHAT YOU SAID,
I THINK, IS SO PROFOUND, WHEN

YOU SAID, “SOMETIMES IT SEEMS
TOO SIMPLE,” I THINK, IF I’M

HEARING YOU RIGHT, ‘CUZ I’VE
BEEN BLINDED BY YOUR COOL

PANTS, CAMO PANTS.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: BUT SOMETIMES,
PEOPLE TRY TO MAKE IT SIMPLE.

IT’S LIKE, “OH, ROMANS 8:28–”
JAI: YES.

LISA: AND THEY’LL TAKE
ONE VERSE.

WELL, ROMANS 8:28 IS FABULOUS
THAT, “GOD WILL WORK

TOGETHER, ALL THINGS FOR OUR
GOOD IF YOU KNOW HIM

AND HIS GLORY.”
BUT THEY MISS THE BEGINNING

OF ROMANS 8, WHICH IS,
“WE WILL GROAN INWARDLY,

AS WE WAIT EAGERLY.”
IF YOU DON’T GET THAT–WHAT

JOYCE SAID EARLIER, YOU HAVE
TO–SCRIPTURE HAS

TO ANSWER SCRIPTURE.

IF SOMEBODY JUST CUTS
AND PASTES ONE VERSE, OR THEY

GIVE YOU–THROW UP ONE
MEME ON SOCIAL MEDIA, THEY

CAN TAKE THAT OUT OF CONTEXT,
AND IT DOES SEEM TRITE.

JAI: EXACTLY, I THINK
THAT’S WHAT IT IS.

LISA: IT’S LIKE, “Y’ALL
JUST CROSS STITCH THAT

AND HUNG IT ON YOUR WALL,
BUT I’M ACTUALLY DEALING WITH

SOMETHING SERIOUS, HERE.”
YOU GO TO ALL

OF DIVINE NARRATIVE.

ALL OF IT, IS THESE STORIES
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE FINDING

GOD IN THE MIDST OF REALLY
TOUGH STUFF.

IT’S NOT JUST ONE SIMPLE,
“OKAY, HERE YOU GO.

NOW, WE’RE DONE.”
AND I THINK THAT’S WHERE

SOMETIMES WE GO, “THAT SEEMS
TOO SIMPLE.”

YOU’RE NOT REALLY SAYING,
“GOD’S WORD IS SIMPLE.”

YOU’RE SAYING, “WHEN
SOMEBODY HAS TRIED TO CUT

AND PASTE A VERSE AND SAY,
‘DON’T STRUGGLE ANYMORE,’

THEN IT SEEMS TRITE.”
JAI: IT’S THE SPIRITUAL

BYPASSING THAT A LOT
OF CHRISTIANS HAVE DONE TO TRY

TO BAND-AID, AND CAUSE PEOPLE
TO MOVE SO QUICKLY PAST

WHATEVER THEY’RE
DEALING WITH.

YOU KNOW, I’M NOT–
I’M DEFINITELY NOT WANTING

TO STAY WHERE I AM.

BUT I DO WANNA HEAL
THE PROPER WAY AND GET

THE ANSWERS THAT I NEED.

SO, THAT’S EXACTLY IT.

LISA: YOU CHANGED–
GINGER: AND ALMOST A–

LISA: SORRY.

GINGER: NO, JUST ALMOST
GUILT THAT GOES ALONG WITH IT.

IT’S LIKE, “IF YOU DON’T
ALREADY UNDERSTAND THIS

VERSE AND WHAT GOD IS,
HOW ARE YOU STILL ASKING

THAT QUESTION?”
SO, AS WE’RE DOING THESE–

AS I READ THESE QUESTIONS,
THERE’S SO PAIN IN THESE

QUESTIONS.

AND SO, IT–
GOD KNOWS THAT IT’S NOT

SOMETHING AS SURFACE-Y,
AS THIS ONE VERSE.

SO MUCH MORE OF IT AS KNOWING
THE HEART OF GOD

FOR OUR PAIN.

LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.

GINGER: SO, WHAT WERE
YOU GONNA SAY, ERIN?

ERIN: I WAS JUST GONNA
SAY I WAS READING

HEBREWS YESTERDAY,
AND IT’S SO AMAZING.

AS WE TALK ABOUT LIKE
THE POWER OF GOD

THAT’S IN THERE,
AND THE ANSWERS,

I’VE READ THIS BEFORE,
BUT READING IT YESTERDAY,

IT STRUCK ME IN A WHOLE NEW WAY.

BUT HOW WE HAVE THE GOD
WHO CREATED EVERYTHING,

HIS SON WAS SENT
TO LIVE LIKE US,

AND HE HAD PAIN
AND HURT AND STRUGGLE.

AND SO, HE IS EMPATHETIC
TOWARDS US BECAUSE

HE KNOWS IT.

SO, IT’S NOT JUST, “GO READ
THAT VERSE BECAUSE IT SOUNDS

REALLY NICE ON THAT WALL
HANGING AND IT LOOKS

PRETTY IN MY LIVING ROOM.”
IT’S BECAUSE JESUS WALKED

ON THIS EARTH WITH
US AND HE WALKED IT OUT,

SO HE EMPATHIZES WITH US.

AND SO, IT DOESN’T MEAN
ALL YOUR ANSWERS

ARE GONNA BE EASY.

WE DON’T GET ALL THOSE.

BUT IT’S NOT THAT
WE ARE LEFT ALONE.

GINGER: RIGHT.

LISA: I LOVE THAT
THE AUTHOR OF HEBREWS

SAID JESUS WAS MADE–
WAS PREPARED FOR THE CROSS.

HE WAS PERFECTED
FOR THE CROSS THROUGH

PAIN AND SUFFERING.

AND SO, GOD EVEN
USED PAIN AND SUFFERING

WITH HIS OWN SON,
INCARNATE MESSIAH,

IT WASN’T ALL LIKE,
ALL HUNKY-DORY FOR HIM.

JOYCE: THOSE ARE SOME
OF MY FAVORITE VERSUS.

HEBREWS 5:8 AND 9,
BECAUSE IT SAYS…

LISA: ME TOO.

I LOVE HEBREWS.

JOYCE: HE GAINED
THE “EQUIPMENT–”

THE AMPLIFIED SAYS,
THAT HE NEEDED

TO BE “THE AUTHOR,”
OF OUR SALVATION.

ERIN: OH, THAT’S SO GOOD.

GINGER: THAT TAKES A–
JOYCE: AND THE EXPERIENCE.

THE EXPERIENCE
AND THE EQUIPMENT.

AND YOU KNOW,
WHEN I LOOK BACK,

MOST OF MY PAIN
WAS JUST GROWING UP.

IT WAS JUST LEARNING
HOW TO APPLY THE WORD

AND NOT LET MY EMOTIONS
CONTROL ME AND NOT LIVE

OUT OF MY OWN MIND.

AND I THINK–BEFORE WE START
ANSWERING THESE QUESTIONS,

I WANNA SAY, I THINK IT’S FINE
TO ASK QUESTIONS.

BUT YOU’RE NOT GONNA
GET THE ANSWER TO EVERY

QUESTION THAT YOU ASK.

AND SOMETIMES, I THINK,
WHAT GOD WANTS TO HEAR IS,

“I’D LOVE TO KNOW WHY,
BUT EVEN IF YOU DON’T TELL ME,

I TRUST YOU.”
LISA: RIGHT, RIGHT,

THAT’S THE END OF JOB.

JOYCE: BECAUSE THAT’S
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS,

“I TRUST YOU,
EVEN IF I NEVER KNOW WHY.”

LISA: “I WANT YOUR PRESENCE
MORE THAN I WANT AN ANSWER.”

GINGER: WELL, THAT LEADS
US RIGHT TO THE FIRST

QUESTION THAT WE’VE REALLY
ALREADY BEGUN ANSWERING,

AND IT PROBABLY IS THE ONE
THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE

THINKING ABOUT RIGHT AWAY.

IT’S: “WHY DO WE SUFFER
SO MUCH?”

SO, THOSE THINGS THAT WE’RE
TALKING ABOUT ARE GREAT

FOUNDATIONS, FOR ME.

CUZ IT’S VERY–MAYBE IRONIC’S
NOT THE WORD, BUT EVEN RIGHT

BEFORE WE STARTED DOING THIS,
I GOT SOME REALLY BAD NEWS

ABOUT SOMEONE THAT I LOVE,
WHO’S SUFFERING VERY MUCH,

AND WE DON’T KNOW
WHAT’S GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND SO, IT’S JUST THE WAY
GOD WORKS SO MUCH.

HE PREPARES OUR HEARTS,
SURROUND US WITH PEOPLE THAT

WE NEED WHEN WE HAVE THOSE,
“WHY,” QUESTIONS.

‘CAUSE I’VE TOLD
YOU THIS BEFORE,

I CAN BE A “WHY” PERSON.

IF I DON’T REALLY WATCH MYSELF,
I CAN BE A “WHY, GOD,”

AND I CAN BE ANGRY.

AND SO, INSTEAD, LEANING
ON THAT FACT THAT,

YOU JUST SAID,
THAT JESUS FELT THAT PAIN,

THAT I’M FEELING,
HE LOST PEOPLE THAT HE LOVED.

HE DID THINGS HE DIDN’T
WANT TO DO, ON THE SURFACE,

BUT HE DID IT TO PLEASE GOD.

SO, I’M GONNA THROW
THIS OUT THERE.

WE’VE ALREADY BEGUN TALKING
ABOUT IT, BUT HOW DO YOU

RESPOND TO THE QUESTION
ABOUT SUFFERING.

JOYCE: WELL,
ONE OF THE REASONS WHY

WE SUFFER SO MUCH–
AND I HOPE PEOPLE CAN

GRASP THIS, ‘CAUSE I WENT
THROUGH IT; IS WE FIGHT

THE SUFFERING RATHER
THAN EMBRACING IT.

GINGER: THAT DOESN’T
SOUND LIKE FUN THOUGH.

JAI: IT DOESN’T.

JOYCE: WELL, BUT IT DOES
MAKE IT EASIER.

BECAUSE IF YOU TRUST GOD,
YOU BELIEVE THAT HE’S DOING

SOMETHING GOOD WITH IT.

LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.

JOYCE: THAT’S WHY IT SAYS,
“TO COUNT IT ALL JOY,”

DOESN’T SAY IT FEELS JOYFUL.

BUT YOU CONSIDER
THAT IT’S GONNA WORK

SOMETHING GOOD IN YOU.

AND SO, THE MORE YOU
FIGHT SOMETHING,

IT’S LIKE A PERSON DROWNING,
THE MORE THEY FIGHT YOU,

THE LESS LIKELY THEY
ARE TO BE SAVED.

AND SO, IF THEY CAN RELAX,
YOU CAN MAYBE,

GET ‘EM TO SHORE.

AND WE ALL START
FIGHTING OUR SUFFERING.

BUT WHEN YOU CAN LEARN
TO JUST EMBRACE IT,

AND BELIEVE THAT GOD IS GONNA
DO SOMETHING GOOD OUT OF IT,

IT ACTUALLY, REALLY MAKES
IT SO MUCH EASIER.

LISA: IT GOES BACK
TO WHAT YOU SAID

AT THE TOP OF THE PODCAST,
MS. JOYCE, WHEN YOU SAID

REALLY UNDERNEATH ALL
OF OUR STRIVING IS UNBELIEF.

AND I THINK IT’S ALSO
UNDERNEATH THAT

IS THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING,
OR BELIEF, THAT GOD IS GOOD.

THAT ULTIMATELY,
HE’S A GOOD GOD.

SO, OF COURSE, THERE’S ALL
DIFFERENT KINDS OF SUFFERING.

WE SEE SUFFERING GOING
ON GLOBALLY, THAT IS THE RESULT

OF REALLY, WRONG DECISION.

AND THEN, YOU SEE SUFFERING,
WHAT YOU’RE GOING THROUGH

TODAY IS JUST, LIFE IS HARD.

JESUS SAYS, “IN THIS WORLD,
YOU WILL HAVE TROUBLE.”

THERE’S HARDSHIP.

THERE’S DEATH HERE.

DEATH WASN’T
IN THE ORIGINAL PLAN.

AND SO, SUFFERING CAN
BE THE RESULT OF SIN.

IT CAN BE THE RESULT
OF THE FALL.

BUT IF YOU BELIEVE OUR
GOD IS GOOD AND ULTIMATELY,

SOMEHOW, SOME WAY
HE WILL WORK THIS

OUT FOR OUR GOOD,
YOU ALSO BELIEVE

WHAT HE SAID IN JOSEPH’S LIFE,
“WHAT MAN INTENDED FOR EVIL,

GOD WILL REDEEM THAT,
AND USE FOR GOOD,”

THEN YOU GO, “OKAY, I MIGHT
NOT BE HAPPY ABOUT THIS.

I’M NOT SIGNING
UP FOR SUFFERING 102

AFTER SUFFERING 101,
BUT I DO BELIEVE

MY GOD IS GOOD.

SO EVEN IF I CAN’T
SEE AROUND THE CORNER

OF MY CIRCUMSTANCES–”
YOU KNOW, I WAS TELLING

Y’ALL EARLIER, I GOT REALLY
SICK DURING COVID,

AND IT LOOKED LIKE
I MIGHT MEET JESUS

FASTER THAN I THOUGHT
I WAS GONNA MEET JESUS.

AND THERE WAS KIND OF THIS
RECKONING MOMENT IN MY–

IN MY–I STARTED TO SAY HOTEL.

THAT’S FREUDIAN.

MY HOSPITAL ROOM, COMPLETELY
ALONE, WITH ME THINKING,

“I’M A SINGLE MOM.”
I’VE GOT AN 11-YEAR-OLD,

WHO LOST HER FIRST MAMA,
BIOLOGICALLY,

BEFORE I GOT TO ADOPT HER.

AND I FELT THIS GREAT PEACE,
FOR 45 SECONDS.

AND I THOUGHT, “OH, THIS
IS WHAT PEACE WITH GOD

FEELS LIKE, ‘ABSENT FROM
THE BODY PRESENT WITH JESUS.'”

AND THEN, I STARTED GOING,
“OH NO, NO, NO, NO, NO,

NO, LORD, THIS IS TOO SOON.

MISSY LOST HER FIRST MAMA.

YOU KNOW, MY HUSBAND IS LOST,
AND WON’T STOP TO ASK

FOR DIRECTIONS.

OH, THIS ISN’T GONNA
GO WELL, THIS IS–”

AND IN MY HOSPITAL ROOM,
I SENSED GOD, THROUGH

HIS SPIRIT, GO, “LISA, DO YOU
BELIEVE I’M A GOOD GOD?”

AND I HAD TO GO, “YES, SIR.”
IT’S JUST, I HAD FORGOTTEN.

I WANTED TO CONTROL MY LIFE.

AND I FORGET GOD DOESN’T
WORK IN TIME AND SPACE,

AS WE KNOW IT.

HE EXTENDS BEYOND THAT.

HE WILL WORK ALL THINGS
OUT FOR OUR GOOD.

GINGER: WHAT YOU DID WAS
MAKE A DECISION, ASIDE FROM

WHAT YOU WERE FEELING
AND ALL OF THE EMOTIONS THAT

YOU WERE DEALING WITH,
BASED ON YOUR EXPERIENCE.

AND THAT’S WHAT’S
REALLY HELPED ME,

AS I’VE HAD MORE EXPERIENCE
WITH GOD, AND A LOT OF HURTS

AND A LOT OF SUFFERING,
TO SEE, YES, DOWN THE ROAD,

I CAN TRUST WHAT
HE SAYS HE WILL DO.

IT DOESN’T MEAN I WON’T HURT
REALLY BAD ALONG THE WAY,

BUT HE WON’T LEAVE
ME IN THAT PLACE.

AND THAT’S HELPED A LOT.

JOYCE: I WAS RECENTLY,
REALLY STRUCK, BY THE FACT,

THAT JESUS, IN THE GARDEN,
PRAYED THREE TIMES

FOR THE SAME THING.

THREE SEPARATE TIMES HE WENT
AND SAID, “FATHER, IF POSSIBLE,

REMOVE THIS CUP FROM ME.”
SO, HE REALLY DID NOT WANNA

GO TO THE CROSS.

I DON’T KNOW.

FOR SOME REASON, IT JUST–
IT STRUCK ME.

HE REALLY, REALLY DID NOT
WANNA GO TO THE CROSS.

IT’S LIKE US,
WHEN WE REALLY DON’T

WANNA GO THROUGH SOMETHING.

AND HE KEPT SAYING,
“IF POSSIBLE,

DELIVER ME FROM THIS,
NEVERTHELESS, YOUR WILL

BE DONE AND NOT MINE.”
AND I THINK–I WANNA BE SURE,

I SAY THIS RIGHT.

I THINK, EVEN MORE THAN
NOT WANTING TO SUFFER,

WE HAVE TO WANT GOD’S WILL.

LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.

ERIN: THAT IS HARD.

THAT IS SO HARD.

LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.

JOYCE: MORE THAN
WE DON’T WANNA SUFFER,

WE HAVE TO WANT GOD’S WILL,
BECAUSE WE TRUST

THAT IF HE DOES ALLOW
US TO GO THROUGH A TIME

OF SUFFERING–THAT DOESN’T
MEAN GOD BROUGHT IT.

BUT I BELIEVE THAT
GOD USES THINGS.

I THINK EVEN I CAN
GET MYSELF IN TROUBLE,

THROUGH MAKING A BAD DECISION,
AND GOD MAY NOT GET

ME OUT OF IT RIGHT AWAY,
LIKE I’D LIKE HIM TO,

BUT HE DECIDES TO USE
IT TO TEACH ME SOMETHING

THAT I NEED TO KNOW.

AND SO, IF WE CAN WANT GOD’S
WILL MORE THAN WE EVEN DON’T

WANNA SUFFER–YOU KNOW,
I JUST–I KEEP FEELING

IMPRESSED TO SAY AGAIN,
THAT IT’S SO MUCH EASIER

WHEN YOU EMBRACE IT.

LISA: IT IS.

WELL, I LOVE THAT YOU
BROUGHT UP GETHSEMANE,

BECAUSE YOU THINK,
CHRIST, HIMSELF, THE MESSIAH,

WAS ABLE TO BE HEARD,
TO SAY, “I DON’T WANT THIS.

I DON’T WANNA SEE YOUR BACK.

I DON’T WANT TO FEEL
COMMUNION BETWEEN ME,

AND YOU CUT OFF.

I DON’T WANT THIS.”
BUT I THINK, OFTENTIMES,

IN CHRISTIAN CULTURE,
WE’RE LIKE, “OKAY,

YOU’RE A NEW CREATURE.

DON’T WHINE ANYMORE.”
AND IT’S LIKE,

“NO, GOD WILL HEAR YOU.”
AND I THINK, THAT’S ONE OF

THE THINGS WHEN SOMEBODY’S
SUFFERING, IS TO SAY,

“TAKE ALL THAT TO JESUS.

TAKE ALL THAT TO THE LORD.

AND GO, ‘THIS IS–THIS–
I FEEL LIKE THIS

IS ABOUT TO KILL ME.'”
AND WHAT WE’RE REALLY

GRIEVING IS TO BE COMPLETELY
ALONE AND TO FEEL

LIKE NOBODY CARES,
AND NOBODY’S GONNA HELP.

YOU GO TO THE LORD AND GO,
“OH, THE LORD HEARD ME.”

YOU KNOW, JOB, DIDN’T GET
A SINGLE QUESTION ANSWERED.

BUT AFTER GOD REVEALED
HIMSELF TO HIM,

IN THE FORM OF SPANKIN’.

ERIN: THAT’S MY FAVORITE
PART OF SCRIPTURE.

LISA: I MEAN, I LOVE IT.

AND HE SAYS–HE DOES
IT WITH SUCH KINDNESS.

THAT HE SAYS, “MY EARS HAD
HEARD OF YOU, BUT NOW–

BUT NOW, MY EYES HAVE SEEN YOU,”
AND NOTHING IS FIXED.

HE’S NOT RECONCILED
WITH HIS WIFE.

HE DOESN’T HAVE
HIS BUSINESS BACK.

HE DOESN’T HAVE MORE CHILDREN.

HE’S BASICALLY STILL
IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MESS

HE STARTED WITH, BUT HE SAYS,
“OH, NOW, THAT I’VE BEEN IN YOUR

PRESENCE, IT’S ENOUGH.”
AND I THINK IF IN SUFFERING

WE WOULD LEARN TO LEAN INTO
GOD IN THAT.

YOU KNOW, I’M 58, SIXTY’S
RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER.

WHICH MEANS I HAVE THE RIGHT
TO WEAR STRETCHY PANTS.

BUT–

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: BUT ONE OF THE THINGS,
I LIKE ABOUT BEING A LITTLE

OLDER, IS I CAN LOOK BACK
OVER MY LIFE AND REALIZE,

I’VE NEVER BEEN
ABANDONED BY GOD.

HE HAS BEEN PRESENT.

I MIGHT NOT HAVE FELT HIM.

BUT HE’S BEEN SO KIND
AND SO REDEMPTIVE THAT

IT’S EASIER FOR ME TO TRUST
THE FUTURE NOW, ‘CAUSE I GO,

“OH, HE HAS NEVER FAILED ME.”
GINGER: EXPERIENCE.

LISA: AND I THINK THAT’S
PART OF LEANING INTO IT,

IS TO GO, “BOY, EVERY OTHER
SEASON THAT I GRIEVED,

OR I WAS HEARTBROKEN,
HE WAS SO NEAR TO ME.”

AND I COULD HAVE NEVER–
I COULDN’T HAVE DREAMT

THE REDEMPTION GOD HAS
WORKED IN MY LIFE.

SO, I DO THINK LEANING INTO
THE PROCESS, AS MS. JOYCE

IS SAYING, IS–NOT TO SAY
HAPPY, CLAPPY, “I LOVE THIS.”

YOU CAN GRIEVE AND SAY,
“I DON’T WANNA DO THIS,”

JUST LIKE JESUS DID,
“BUT I STILL TRUST YOU.”

GINGER: YOU KNOW,
WHEN I GOT THIS BAD NEWS TODAY,

AND JUST TEARS
STREAMING DOWN MY FACE

AND MY FRIENDS WERE PRAYING
FOR ME–SO, I APPRECIATE

THAT SO MUCH, JUST SO IMPORTANT
FOR US TO HAVE.

AND LISA, YOU SAID SOMETHING
THAT REALLY STRUCK ME.

AND IT’S NOT SOMETHING
THAT I WAS THINKING ABOUT

OR GRAPPLING WITH AT THE TIME,
BUT IT WAS LIKE, “WOW.

YES.”
AND YOU SAID THAT

OUR PAIN IS NOT PUNITIVE.

THAT IT’S NOT, LIKE,
YOU SAID, JOYCE, GOD ISN’T

THROWING PAIN AT US.

THAT IT’S NOT ALWAYS–I MEAN,
THERE ARE THINGS THAT

WE DO IN OUR LIFE THAT
CAUSE OUR OWN PAIN.

LISA: IT’S A CONSEQUENCE.

GINGER: RIGHT,
CONSEQUENTIALLY.

ABSOLUTELY.

BUT JUST BECAUSE WE HAVE PAIN
IN OUR LIFE, IT DOES NOT MEAN

THAT GOD IS MAKING US SUFFER.

THAT’S VERY DIFFERENT.

JOYCE: PAIN AND SUFFERING
COMES FOR A LOT

OF DIFFERENT REASONS.

AND THAT’S WHY
IT’S ALMOST FOOLISH

TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT…

LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.

JOYCE: WHERE IT CAME FROM,
I MEAN, I–YOU KNOW.

LISA: OFTENTIMES,
IN SCRIPTURE, IT’S A PROMOTION.

YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK
AT JOB’S STORY, BASICALLY,

GOD WAS SAYING, “I VOTE JOB FOR
THIS BECAUSE HE WILL WALK

THIS OUT IN A WAY…”
GINGER: THANKS A LOT, GOD.

LISA: “BUT HE WILL WALK
THIS OUT IN A WAY THAT

GIVES ME GLORY.”
IT’S A PROMOTION.

DAVID SAYS IN PSALM 119…

GINGER: IT’S A BIGGER
PICTURE.

LISA: “IN HIS FAITHFULNESS,
HE HAS AFFLICTED ME.”

GOD WASN’T DOING THIS FROM
A CAPRICIOUS, PUNITIVE PLACE.

“HE KNEW MY FAITH WAS
STRONG ENOUGH TO WALK

THIS OUT IN A WAY.”
AND YOU KNOW, I DON’T

KNOW–JOYCE, YOU AND I–
WELL, I GUESS THE THREE

OF US ARE THE OLDEST HERE.

WELL, Y’ALL BOTH STILL
HAVE TIGHT SKIN

AND HIGH METABOLISM.

SO, I LOOK LIKE
THE OLDEST BUT…

GINGER: STOP.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: BUT YOU KNOW HOW,
WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEBODY YOUNG,

WHO HASN’T BEEN THROUGH ANY
HARDSHIP AND THEY’RE–WHEN

I HAVE SOME 22-YEAR-OLD COME
UP TO ME AND GO, “OH, MISS LISA,

WHEN YOU STOP WORRYING
ABOUT BEING MARRIED–I MEAN,

I REALLY STRUGGLED,
BUT WHEN I GOT MARRIED AT 19…”

AND I’M LIKE, “I WANNA KICK
HER IN THE SHINS.”

I’M LIKE, “YOU HAVE NOT LIVED
ENOUGH LIFE.”

BUT YOU HAVE SOMEBODY
WHO’S BEEN THROUGH HARDSHIP,

WHO SAYS, “GOD HAS BEEN
GOOD TO ME.

GOD HAS BEEN FAITHFUL.”
THAT KIND OF TESTIMONY HAS

CREDIBILITY BECAUSE YOU GO,
“BOY, THEY HAVE LEANED INTO

GOD IN THE DARK, STORMY TIMES
IN THEIR LIFE.”

AND I THINK THAT’S WHERE
YOU GO, “WOW.”

IT’S NOT THAT YOU GET CLOSE
TO GOD, AND YOU NEVER HAVE

HARDSHIP AGAIN.

IT’S THAT YOU CAN GET CLOSE
TO GOD, AND YOU GROW UP

AND YOU GO, “HE WON’T LEAVE ME.”
AND THAT’S ONE OF THE MOST

IMPORTANT THINGS.

JOYCE: IT’S ONE THING
TO SAY, “GOD IS FAITHFUL,”

WHEN YOU HAVEN’T HAD
ANY EXPERIENCES

TO GO THROUGH YET.

THEN IT’S JUST A SCRIPTURE
YOU PICKED UP SOMEWHERE

OR SOMETHING YOU HEARD
SOMEBODY SAY.

BUT I KNOW–I KNOW THAT
I WOULD NOT BE WHERE I’M

AT TODAY, IN MINISTRY, HAD I NOT
BEEN THROUGH THE THINGS THAT

I WENT THROUGH BECAUSE NOW
I DO HAVE EXPERIENCE AND I HAVE

EQUIPMENT, AND I KNOW WHAT
IT FEELS LIKE TO SUFFER,

BUT I DO ALSO KNOW WHAT’S
ON THE OTHER SIDE OF IT.

GINGER: THE THING ABOUT
THESE BIG QUESTIONS IS WE

COULD TALK ABOUT ANY ONE OF
THESE FOR THE ENTIRE PODCAST.

JOYCE: I STARTED TO SAY,
WE BETTER HAVE MORE

THAN ONE HERE.

GINGER: SO, SOME OF THEM
WE’LL ANSWER MORE QUICKLY,

AND MOVE ON.

HERE’S ONE,
FROM DAISY KIPGIN.

SO, I’M NOT GONNA STOP
READING THESE NAMES.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: IT’S A HAPPY NAME.

GINGER: DAISY’S A GREAT NAME.

“IS IT OKAY TO MARRY MY
NON-CHRISTIAN BOYFRIEND?”

LISA: I WOULD SAY NO.

I WOULD SAY VERY CLEARLY, NO.

AND PART OF IT IS,
I THINK GOD’S WORD’S

REAL CLEAR ON THAT,
NOT BEING UNEQUALLY YOKED.

BUT IT’S NOT BECAUSE
GOD IS PUNITIVE.

IT’S BECAUSE HE WANTS
WHAT’S BEST FOR US.

AND, YEARS AGO, I WAS
PROBABLY 13 OR 14 JUST

STARTING TO GO WITH BOYS.

AND MY DAD WAS SOUTHERN
TO THE BONE.

AND I CAME HOME WITH SOME
CUTE, LITTLE, COUNTRY BOY,

I WAS DATING, AND MY DAD SAID,
“LISA–” HE WAS A MAN OF FEW

WORDS, BUT THEY MATTERED.

HE SAID, “WANTCHA
TO COME OUTSIDE.”

HE WAS LIKE A MINIATURE
JOHN WAYNE.

I WAS LIKE, “YES, SIR.”
AND HE SAID, “I WANT YOU

TO CLIMB UP ON THAT
PICNIC TABLE.”

AND I THOUGHT,
“THIS IS THE ODDEST THING.”

AND I WAS LIKE, “YES, SIR.”
AND HE SAID, “NOW,

GIVE ME YOUR HANDS.”
I WAS LIKE, “YES, SIR.”

AND I HELD OUT MY HANDS,
AND HE GRABBED MY HANDS

AND HE JUST PULLED ME,
JUST A LITTLE BIT,

AND I FELL OFF THE PICNIC TABLE.

AND HE SAID, “DON’T EVER
THINK THAT YOU CAN PULL

PEOPLE UP TO YOUR LEVEL.”
THIS YOUNG MAN

WASN’T A BELIEVER.

AND HE SAID, “THEY WILL ALWAYS
PULL YOU DOWN TO THEIRS.”

AND THEN, HE JUST
WALKED IN THE HOUSE.

AND I WAS LIKE, “HUH.”
GINGER: AND YOU LAID

THERE ON THE GROUND
UNDER THE PICNIC TABLE.

LISA: HE CAUGHT ME.

I DIDN’T GET HURT.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: BUT YOU KNOW THAT
HAS FORMED—AND IT’S NOT THAT

YOU’RE BETTER, AS A BELIEVER,
THAN SOMEONE WHO

DOESN’T KNOW CHRIST.

I DON’T MEAN TO PUT THAT
IN A HIERARCHICAL STANDPOINT.

IT’S THAT THEY WILL PULL
YOU AWAY FROM JESUS.

YOU KNOW, HE SAYS
HE COMES WITH A SWORD.

HE COMES WITH A SWORD,
NOT CUZ HE’S AN ANGRY GOD,

BUT TO CUT AWAY ANYTHING
THAT THREATENS OUR

RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

AND YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE
TO WALK TOWARD JESUS WITH

SOMEBODY WHO DOESN’T
TRUST HIM.

SO, I’D SAY ABSOLUTELY NOT.

JOYCE: YOU KNOW,
THERE ARE MANY, MANY

CASES WHERE SOMEBODY
HAS MARRIED AN UNBELIEVER

AND THAT PERSON HAS COME
TO CHRIST AS A RESULT OF THAT.

SO, WE CAN’T SIT HERE
AND SAY THAT IT NEVER,

EVER, EVER WORKS.

BUT IF WE’RE TALKING ABOUT
JUST THE BIBLE, AND WISDOM,

IT’S MUCH BETTER TO FOLLOW
WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

ERIN: I WILL SAY TOO,
BASED ON WHAT MIKE

AND I WALKED THROUGH
THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

SO MANY TIMES, I WOULD SAY,
“IF WE DIDN’T BOTH KNOW

THE LORD, THIS CONVERSATION
WOULD BE EXTREMELY

DIFFERENT RIGHT NOW.

AND EVEN, JUST THE OTHER NIGHT,
THERE–WE GOT FRUSTRATED,

AND I COULD FEEL IT ESCALATING.

AND SO, I BACKED
OFF AND I PRAYED.

I SAID–YOU’D HAVE BEEN
SO PROUD OF ME, JOYCE.

JOYCE: OHHH….

[LADIES LAUGHING]

ERIN: AND IT CHANGED
THAT CONVERSATION.

AND SO, I SAID TO HIM LATER,
“ISN’T THAT AMAZING,

WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT DID?

AND WE HAD A CONVERSATION
THAT BROUGHT US TOGETHER.

BUT SO MANY TIMES I’VE THOUGHT,
“IF WE DIDN’T BOTH

KNOW THE LORD,
THIS WOULD NOT BE WORKING

THE WAY IT IS RIGHT NOW.

JOYCE: IT’S ALWAYS BEST
TO FOLLOW SCRIPTURE.

EVEN, AS FAR AS GETTING
INTO BUSINESS WITH SOMEBODY

THAT’S NOT A BELIEVER.

YOU’RE NOT GONNA
HAVE THE SAME MORALS.

YOU’RE NOT GONNA HAVE
THE SAME PRINCIPLES.

LISA: BUT YOU KNOW,
BACK TO THE QUESTION,

IF DAISY REALLY LOVES
THIS FELLA, THEN I WOULDN’T SAY,

“KICK HIM TO THE CURB.”
I’D SAY, “HERE’S WHAT

THE BIBLE SAYS.

HERE’S WHAT MS. JOYCE SAID.

AND SO, I REALLY LOVE YOU.

IF IT’S MEANT TO BE, TIME AND
TRUTH WALK HAND IN HAND, WILL

YOU PLEASE START MEETING WITH
THESE GENTLEMEN IN OUR CHURCH

WHO ARE REALLY GOOD GUYS,
AND THEY’LL MEET YOU

AT STARBUCKS OR AT DENNY’S
FOR PIE AND WALK WITH YOU.

‘CAUSE I WOULD LOVE
TO BE YOUR WIFE,

IF YOU LOVE JESUS.

HE’S MY FIRST LOVE,
BUT I’D LOVE FOR YOU

TO BE MY SECOND.”
AND MAYBE,

TAKE HIM TO CHURCH,
JUST LIKE DAVE DID WITH JOYCE.

GINGER: THAT’S A GREAT
PRACTICAL STEP TO TAKE.

JAI: I THINK THAT’S REALLY
A GOOD POINT TOO.

BUT ALSO, I THINK IT’S
IMPORTANT TO SAY ALSO, IF YOU

KNOW, FLAT OUT THAT THIS GUY
DOESN’T LOVE GOD AND DOESN’T

WANT–LIKE, I CAN THINK OF
MANY THINGS THAT I WOULD

THINK THAT AFTER I GOT
MARRIED THAT MY EX WOULD

CHANGE OR, YOU KNOW, LIKE,
“OH, I CAN HELP HIM

GET TO THIS POINT.”
YOU KNOW?

LIKE, BUT IF YOU KNOW THAT
THIS PERSON DOESN’T WANT WHAT

YOU WANT, THEN YOU HAVE TO BE
COURAGEOUS ENOUGH TO KNOW

THAT, THAT’S NOT THE ONE.

YOU KNOW, DON’T TRY TO MAKE
SOMETHING HAPPEN.

JOYCE: YOU’RE TAKING
A BIG CHANCE WHEN YOU

MARRY SOMEBODY THINKING
YOU’RE GONNA CHANGE ‘EM.

GINGER: AND I THINK
LISA’S SAYING, “DON’T MARRY

HIM UNTIL SOME THINGS CHANGE,”
RIGHT?

BUT STILL.

LISA: I THINK THAT’S WHAT,
AS BEST WE UNDERSTAND

THE ANALOGY OF SCRIPTURE–
THE FULL OF SCRIPTURE,

I BELIEVE THAT’S
WHAT IT TEACHES.

EVEN IF YOU LOOK BACK
TO ISRAELITE COVENANTS,

I THINK THAT’S WHAT THE WHOLE
OF SCRIPTURE TEACHES.

BUT BE A LOVER
OF CHRIST IN THAT.

BE KIND TO HIM.

LOVE HIM WELL.

EVEN IF SHE HAS TO BREAK
UP WITH HIM, LOVE HIM WELL,

SO HE GOES, “YOU KNOW,
I DATED THIS

CHRISTIAN GIRL ONCE.

AND EVEN, IN BREAKING
UP WITH ME, SHE WAS

SO KIND AND SO RESPECTFUL.”
ERIN: ONE THING, I JUST

KEEP THINKING, WHEN WE ASK
QUESTIONS, LIKE THE ONES

WE’RE ASKING TODAY,
IT’S EASY, ESPECIALLY,

IF YOU DON’T HAVE
THAT RELATIONSHIP

WITH THE LORD, TO THINK,
“HE’S JUST GIVING

ME A BUNCH OF RULES.

SO, NOW, I CAN’T MARRY
THE MAN I LOVE BECAUSE

HE DOESN’T KNOW GOD.”
BUT I LOVE WHAT YOU SAID,

BECAUSE IT IS NOT
ABOUT RULES FOR HIM.

IT’S BECAUSE THIS IS WHAT
IS BEST FOR YOU.

“I LOVE YOU SO MUCH,
I’M GIVING YOU THIS

GUIDELINE BECAUSE I WANT
TO TAKE CARE OF YOU.”

SO, I JUST THINK THAT’S
IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER,

AS ANSWERING QUESTIONS.

IT’S BECAUSE HE LOVES US.

NOT BECAUSE HE’S A MEAN GOD.

LISA: I WAS TRYING TO
EXPLAIN THE 10 COMMANDMENTS

TO MISSY THE OTHER DAY.

AND I SAID, “BABY, WE TEND
TO SEE WHAT GOD TELLS US,

ENCOURAGES US TO DO,
AS RULES.”

AND I SAID, “THEY’RE NOT RULES.”
I SAID, “REMEMBER WHEN

WE WENT BOWLING?”
THE–WHEN THEY PUT THOSE FELT

BUMPERS UP, WHEN YOU BOWL,
AND IT KEEPS YOUR BALL

FROM GOING IN THE GUTTER.

I SAID, “THAT’S REALLY
WHAT THE IMPERATIVES

OF SCRIPTURE ARE.

GOD LOVES US SO MUCH.

HE WANTS US TO HAVE
A GOOD LIFE.

HE WANTS US TO HAVE
HEALTHY RELATIONSHIPS

WITH EACH OTHER.

SO, HE GIVES US THESE
PARAMETERS, AND WE CALL

THEM COMMANDMENTS,
OR RULES, OR IMPERATIVES,

BUT THEY’RE FOR OUR GOOD.

HE’S NOT AN ANGRY,
GOD TRYING TO WHACK US OVER

THE HEAD WITH A BIG BIBLE.”
JOYCE: HE’S NOT TRYING

TO TAKE AWAY EVERYTHING
WE’D LIKE TO HAVE.

HE’S ALWAYS, ALWAYS,
GOD IS TRYING TO SAVE

US FROM PAIN AND AGONY.

LISA: AMEN, AND BLESS US.

JOYCE: ALWAYS.

GINGER: LET’S GO A LITTLE
BIT OF A DIFFERENT DIRECTION.

AND TO BE HONEST,
I DON’T EVEN KNOW IF THE ANSWER

TO THIS IS IN THE BIBLE,
SO I’M HOPE–I KNOW YOU

JUST SAID EVERYTHING IS.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

GINGER: I KNOW, I KNOW–
JOYCE: AND YOU’RE NOT

GONNA GIVE IT TO ME.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

GINGER: BUT I WANNA HEAR,
BECAUSE I THINK

THIS IS A QUESTION
A LOT OF PEOPLE ASK,

“CAN LOVED ONES, IN HEAVEN,
SEE WHAT’S HAPPENING ON EARTH?”

LISA: THAT’S A GREAT
QUESTION.

ERIN: DO YOU HAVE
AN ANSWER TOO?

LISA: I’LL DEFER TO JOYCE.

THERE IS ONE BIBLICAL
PRECEDENT THAT SCHOLARS

TALK ABOUT.

AND THAT IS WHERE THE MAN
WHO WAS TORTURED SAID,

“IF HE COULD JUST GIVE ME A JUST
A DROP ON MY TONGUE FROM

HEAVEN,” SO SOME BIBLICAL
SCHOLARS SAY THAT MEANS

THEY CAN SEE.

I DON’T THINK YOU CAN COME
UP WITH A WHOLE BIBLE

STUDY THAT’S DEFINITIVE.

RANDY ALCORN HAS SOME GREAT
STUFF IN HIS BOOK “HEAVEN.”

BUT I DON’T THINK WE CAN
DEFINITIVELY–I’LL DEFER

TO JOYCE, BUT I HAVEN’T SEEN
ANYTHING THAT DEFINITIVELY

SAYS THEY SEE EXACTLY
WHAT’S GOING ON.

GINGER: IT’S ONE
OF THE MYSTERIES, I THINK,

THAT WE’RE NOT GONNA
KNOW FOR A WHILE.

LISA: WE DO HAVE THE MIND
OF CHRIST MORE GLORIFIED,

AND HE KNOWS EVERYTHING
IS OMNISCIENT.

SO MAYBE, BUT I THINK YOU HAVE
TO USE SOME GYMNASTICS…

JOYCE: PEOPLE THAT HAVE
HAD NEAR-DEATH EXPERIENCE,

THEY ALWAYS SAY THAT THEY
RECOGNIZE THEIR RELATIVES,

SAW THEM.

I DON’T REALLY KNOW IF PEOPLE
CAN SEE WHAT’S GOING ON,

ON EARTH OR NOT.

I ALWAYS SAY, SOMETIMES,
WHEN I’M PREACHING THAT

MY DAD WHO ABUSED ME,
HE’S PROBABLY CHEERING ME ON.

BUT, TO ME, THAT’S NOT
A QUESTION THAT I CARE ABOUT.

YOU KNOW, IF THEY CAN,
THEY CAN.

AND IF THEY CAN’T,
THEY CAN’T.

OR PEOPLE ASK, YOU KNOW,
“ARE DOGS IN HEAVEN?”

OR YOU KNOW.

GINGER: YES.

JOYCE: I WANNA THINK MY–

[LADIES LAUGHING]

JOYCE: I WANNA THINK
MINE IS, BUT YOU KNOW,

I DON’T KNOW THAT.

LISA: AND SOME PEOPLE GO
TO HEBREWS 12, “THE CLOUD

OF WITNESSES” AND THEY
USE THAT FOR THAT.

BUT I DON’T THINK WE CAN
ANSWER THAT DEFINITIVELY.

GINGER: ALL RIGHT.

WELL, LET’S GO TO ANOTHER
VERY, VERY HARD QUESTION,

BUT AN IMPORTANT QUESTION.

“WHY AM I NOT HEALED?

I’VE PRAYED.

I BELIEVE.

I’VE DONE ALL I NEED
TO DO–OR ALL I KNOW TO DO,

AND I’M NOT HEALED.”
JOYCE: WELL, IF I WANTED

TO BE REALLY SUPER SPIRITUAL,
I WOULD TELL YOU THAT,

IN CHRIST, YOU ARE HEALED.

YOU MAY NOT EXPERIENCE
THE MANIFESTATION OF IT UNTIL

YOU GET TO HEAVEN.

BUT I BELIEVE THAT GOD’S
HEALING POWER IS IN US.

AND I DON’T KNOW WHY
IT’S ALWAYS NOT MANIFESTED HERE,

BUT WE KNOW THERE’S
NO SICKNESS IN HEAVEN.

THERE’S NO PAIN IN HEAVEN.

AND LIKE I SAID, MAYBE THAT’S
A LITTLE BIT TOO

OVERLY SPIRITUAL.

BUT IT’S OBVIOUS,
EVEN IN THE BIBLE,

NOT EVERY SINGLE
PERSON WAS HEALED.

PAUL HAD SOMETHING
WRONG WITH HIM.

TIMOTHY HAD A STOMACH PROBLEM.

AND YET, THERE WAS
ALL KINDS OF MIRACLES.

BUT NOT EVERYBODY–I MEAN,
THE ONE MAN GOT SICK FROM

WORKING SO HARD IN MINISTRY
THAT HE ALMOST DIED.

I’VE HAD THAT EXPERIENCE.

AND, SO, YOU KNOW, WE KIND
OF ONLY LOOK AT THE HEALINGS.

WE DON’T LOOK AT THE ONES
THAT WEREN’T HEALED.

LISA: AND WE ONLY LOOK
AT THE HERE AND NOW.

WE ARE BOUND IN OUR HUMAN
MINDS BY TIME AND SPACE.

IT USED TO ALWAYS DRIVE
ME NUTS THAT MOSES DIDN’T MAKE

IT INTO HEAVEN BECAUSE–INTO
NEBO, HE MADE IT INTO HEAVEN,

NOT INTO–SORRY,
THE PROMISED LAND.

AND I THINK IT’S SO SAD
HE WAS BURIED ON NEBO,

‘CAUSE HE WAS SUCH A GOOD GUY.

YOU KNOW,
APART FROM THE MURDER RAP,

HE WAS SUCH A GOOD GUY.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: BUT HE’S FAITHFUL
FOR 40 YEARS, AND THEN,

HE LOSES TEMPER, HITS THE ROCK
AND THEN, GOD SAYS–

JOYCE: AND THAT
SEEMS SO UNFAIR.

LISA: IT SEEMS SO UNFAIR.

AND THEN, ONE DAY,
I WAS STUDYING

THE TRANSFIGURATION,
AND I WAS JUST STUDYING

THAT AS A PARALLEL PASSAGE.

AND YOU KNOW, IT TAKES
PLACE ON A HIGH MOUNTAIN.

NEW TESTAMENT SCHOLARS
THINK IT’S MOUNT HERMAN,

BUT SOMEWHERE IN THE NORTHERN
SHORE OF THE SEA OF GALILEE.

AND THERE’S JESUS TRANSFIGURED,
HE’S SHINING

WHITE, AND THERE APPEARS NEXT
TO HIM, MOSES, AND ELIJAH,

CENTURIES AFTER THEY
EXPERIENCED A PHYSICAL DEATH.

AND I REMEMBER READING THAT,
AND YOU KNOW, THAT’S WHEN

YOU SAID THE BIBLE,
ISN’T A FLAT TEXT.

YOU READ IT AND IT’LL–
HEBREWS READS DIFFERENT

TO YOU, THIS WEEK,
THAN IT DID A YEAR AGO.

JOYCE: HE GOT TO GO INTO
A DIFFERENT PROMISE LAND.

LISA: RIGHT.

AND I WENT, [GASPS],
HE DID MAKE IT INTO THE PROMISED

LAND BECAUSE HE’S AT ONE
OF THE HIGHEST POINTS IN ISRAEL.

HE CAN SEE THE WHOLE
SEA OF GALILEE.

HE’S STANDING NEXT
TO A GLORIFIED JESUS.

IF WE COULD INTERVIEW MOSES
RIGHT NOW, ON TALK IT OUT,

AND SAY, “WOULD YOU RATHER
HAVE GONE INTO THAT

PHYSICAL LAND?”
GINGER: CAN YOU GET HIM

IN AS A GUEST FOR US?

LISA: MAYBE,
I’LL TEXT HIM AND SEE.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: YOU KNOW,
“WOULD YOU RATHER HAVE GONE IN,

IN YOUR PHYSICAL JAR
OF CLAY BODY WITH TWO

TO THREE MILLION INGRATES,
OR DOOR NUMBER TWO,

WOULD YOU RATHER TRUST
THAT OUR GOD IS ALL WAYS

REDEEMING?”
YOU’RE ALREADY HEALED,

IN THE CONTEXT OF THE DIVINE.

HE’D SAY, “DOOR NUMBER TWO,
‘CAUSE I GOT TO STAND

NEXT TO A GLORIFIED JESUS.”
SO, IF YOU’RE NOT HEALED

PHYSICALLY, THAT CAN
BE THE THORN IN YOUR FLESH,

THAT ALWAYS REMINDS YOU
WE’RE NOT GLORIFIED YET.

WE’RE–THIS ISN’T OUR HOME.

WE’RE ALIENS AND STRANGERS HERE.

“ONE DAY, I WON’T HAVE THIS
PHYSICAL AILMENT ANYMORE”.

AND THEN, YOU CAN TRUST THAT
GOD WILL USE IT TO GIVE YOU

A TESTIMONY, TO ENCOURAGE
OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE

WOUNDED AND HURTING.

WE’VE GOT MORE PEOPLE
IN PAIN THAN WE DO HAVE

PEOPLE THAT ARE HUNKY-DORY.

AND SO THAT GIVES
HER LEGITIMACY.

JOYCE: YEAH, I WALKED
IN HERE, THIS MORNING,

WITH A BACKACHE,
AND I’VE HAD IT FOR A MONTH.

AND I PREACHED OVER
THE WEEKEND WITH IT.

AND I’VE PRAYED AND MANY
PEOPLE HAVE PRAYED FOR ME.

I DON’T KNOW WHY, YOU KNOW,
I DON’T–I DON’T KNOW

WHY GOD HASN’T HEALED ME.

BUT I’M NOT FOCUSING ON IT.

I’M GONNA KEEP FOCUSING
ON WHAT I’M CALLED TO DO.

AND I BELIEVE THAT–
I BELIEVE GOD WILL EITHER

HEAL ME OR HE’LL ENABLE
ME TO DO WHAT I NEED TO DO.

LISA: AND THEN,
IN THE MEANTIME,

HE REMINDS YOU THAT
IT’S IN YOUR WEAKNESS,

THAT HE’S YOUR STRENGTH
WHEN YOU PREACH.

JOYCE: THAT’S RIGHT.

AND IT WILL END WELL.

I DON’T KNOW HOW
LONG IT’LL TAKE,

BUT IT WILL END WELL.

AND YOU KNOW, IT’S VERY,
VERY HARD TO ANSWER

THE QUESTION FOR SOMEBODY,
“WHY AM I NOT HEALED?”

BECAUSE YOU DO NOT KNOW
ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT’S GOING

ON WITH GOD AND THAT PERSON.

AND THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT
SHE WON’T BE HEALED MAYBE

TOMORROW OR THE NEXT DAY.

I THINK WE JUST–WE HAVE
TO BELIEVE.

JAI: AND WHAT I’M LEARNING
THOUGH, AS I MATURE AND GROW

EVEN MORE, YOU KNOW, I’M 40,
BUT I’VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO,

BUT I’M LEARNING EVEN
THROUGH THIS LAST HARD,

HARD TRIAL, IS THAT I USED
TO BE SO GOAL ORIENTED,

AS FAR AS LIKE
THE FINISH–THE OUTCOME.

I WANT THE OUTCOME.

WHAT I’M LEARNING,
AS I’M EMBRACING THE STRUGGLE

OF LIFE, OR HEALTH ISSUES,
OR THINGS LIKE THAT, AND EVEN,

WATCHING MY MOM STRUGGLE
WITH CANCER, YOU KNOW,

SEVERAL TIMES IT’S LIKE,
IT’S MORE–IT’S LESS ABOUT

THE REMISSION, LIKE PART.

IT WAS LESS ABOUT
THAT FOR MY MOM.

IT WAS MORE ABOUT THE JOURNEY,
LIKE, HOW SHE WENT THROUGH.

AND THE TESTIMONY OF WHAT I SAW,
EVEN WITH–AT–MY MOM HAS

BLOWN ME AWAY WITHOUT–
YOU KNOW, WITH THE CANCER

EPISODES SHE’S HAD.

HONESTLY–CUZ MY DAD’S
BALD NOW, BY CHOICE.

BUT LIKE, HE WOULD
TAKE HER TO CHEMO.

AND THEY’D BE LIKE,
“WHICH ONE OF YOU ARE

HERE FOR THE TREATMENT?”

[LADIES LAUGHING]

JAI: YOU KNOW,
CUZ MY MOM LOOKS SO GOOD.

LIKE, MY MOM MADE SURE SHE’S
LIKE, “AS I GO THROUGH THIS,

I WANNA BE AN EXAMPLE,
YOU KNOW, TO SHOW WHAT

GOD IS DOING THROUGH ME,
NO MATTER HOW I FEEL.”

MY MOM WAS WEAK, BUT SHE–
YOU COULD NOT–THAT’S WHY

I LIKE WIGS, I THINK,
CUZ MY MOM.

YOU KNOW, LIKE,
SHE HAD A WIG ON,

SHE JUST LOOKED GOOD,
AND SHE WENT THROUGH

IT WITH SO MUCH JOY.

SO, I’M JUST LEARNING THAT
THROUGH THE PROCESS.

IT’S THE JOURNEY LESS
THAN THE OUTCOME.

WE BELIEVE FOR THE OUTCOME.

WE BELIEVE THE BEST
FOR THE OUTCOME.

BUT THE PROCESS IS…

JOYCE: WHEN I WAS A KID
AND MY DAD WAS SEXUALLY

ABUSING ME, I WOULD LAY
IN BED AT NIGHT AND PRAY

THAT GOD WOULD DELIVER
ME FROM THAT SITUATION.

I PRAYED MY MOTHER
WOULD LEAVE HIM.

I PRAYED STUFF.

I SHOULDN’T HAVE PRAYED.

I PRAYED HE’D DIE.

YOU KNOW, I JUST–I WANTED
OUT OF THAT SITUATION SO BAD.

AND AS I SAY, GOD DID NOT
GET ME OUT OF IT, BUT HE DID

GET ME THROUGH IT.

AND I GAINED EQUIPMENT
AND EXPERIENCE.

AND I CAME OUT OF IT,
NOT BITTER AT GOD, EVENTUALLY,

ABLE TO FORGIVE AND EVEN
TAKE CARE OF MY MOM AND DAD,

AND EVENTUALLY, GET TO LEAD
MY DAD TO THE LORD.

AND WE ALWAYS WANT
TO GET OUT OF THE PAIN.

THAT’S HUMAN NATURE.

WE’RE GONNA CONTINUE
TO WANT THAT.

BUT IF GOD DOESN’T GET
YOU OUT OF IT, HE WILL

TAKE YOU THROUGH IT.

AND I THINK WE HAVE
TO BE ABLE TO TRUST HIM,

THAT WHICHEVER WAY
HE CHOOSES TO DO IT.

I MEAN, JESUS DIDN’T
GET OUT OF IT.

HE DIDN’T GET OUT OF IT.

I HEARD A STORY ABOUT
ONE MAN WHO GOT SO MAD

AT GOD BECAUSE HIS SON
HAD CANCER AND HE DIED.

AND HE’D PRAYED FOR HIM TO LIVE,
AND HE KINDA SHOOK HIS FIST

AT GOD AND SAID, “WHERE WERE
YOU WHEN MY SON DIED?”

AND GOD ANSWERED HIM BACK,
AND SAID, “THE SAME PLACE

I WAS WHEN MINE DIED.”
ERIN: OH WOW.

THAT’S GOOD.

JAI: THAT’S HEAVY.

GINGER: ALL RIGHT.

LET’S JUST MOVE ON TO ANOTHER
QUESTION BECAUSE–

JOYCE: HOW ‘BOUT SOMETHING
A LITTLE SIMPLER?

[LADIES LAUGHING]

GINGER: OKAY.

LISA: DO YOU KNOW,
WHAT I THINK IS GREAT

THOUGH ABOUT THIS?

IS NONE OF US ARE GIVING
PAT ANSWERS.

BECAUSE IT–WHEN YOU SAID
IT REALLY IS ABOUT UNBELIEF,

YOU’VE GOT TO BELIEVE,
EVEN WHEN THERE ISN’T

A SIMPLE ANSWER.

AND I THINK OUR CULTURE
IS TOO QUICK TO GO,

“OH, HERE IT IS.”
AND SOMETIMES,

IT’S JUST IN THE PROCESS.

GINGER: OR EVEN, TO SAY,
YOU DON’T HAVE THE FAITH

OR THERE’S THIS
GOING ON IN YOUR LIFE.

AND THERE ARE ALL KINDS
OF SITUATIONS, LIKE YOU SAID,

WE DON’T KNOW WHAT’S
REALLY HAPPENING.

BUT THOSE ARE NOT
THE ANSWERS THAT ARE

HELPFUL TO A SUFFERING PERSON.

JOYCE: THERE’S NO SUCH
THING AS FAITH WITHOUT SOME

UNANSWERED QUESTIONS.

GINGER: RIGHT.

LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.

JOYCE: IF YOU HAVE
ALL THE ANSWERS,

THEN YOU DON’T NEED GOD.

ERIN: I WAS JUST READING
MY BIBLE THIS MORNING,

AND YOU SAID THAT
EXACT SAME THING.

IT WAS YOUR NOTE ON THERE,
ON–IT WAS FOR HEBREWS.

AND YOU SAID FAITH–
YOU NEED FAITH UNTIL

IT’S ALREADY HAPPENED.

ONCE YOU GET WHAT
YOU’RE PRAYING FOR,

OR THAT SITUATION’S OVER,
YOU DON’T NEED FAITH ANYMORE.

SO, FAITH IS THE PROCESS
OF WAITING FOR SOMETHING.

I THOUGHT THAT
WAS REALLY GOOD.

GINGER: THIS IS THE BIBLE
WITH JOYCE NOTES IN IT,

IS THAT WHAT–?

ERIN: YES, I’M SORRY.

IT’S JOYCE’S
“ENJOYING EVERYDAY LIFE” BIBLE.

GINGER: CUZ, JOYCE DID
NOT WRITE THE BIBLE.

ERIN: NO, JOYCE DIDN’T.

BUT SHE KNOWS IT.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: IT’S JOYCE’S
COMMENTARY.

JOYCE: WE COULD LIGHTEN
THIS UP, JUST FOR A MINUTE.

AND I CAN TELL YOU
A FUNNY STORY.

ERIN: PLEASE DO.

JOYCE: A GIRL WAS
DATING A GUY.

THIS IS TRUE.

AND SHE KEPT TELLING HIM,
“YOU NEED TO READ JOYCE’S BOOK.

YOU NEED TO READ JOYCE’S BOOK.”
WELL, SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT

“BATTLEFIELD OF THE MIND.”
SO, HE GETS A BIBLE,

AND HE LOOKS ALL OVER
THE PLACE FOR JOYCE’S BOOK.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

JOYCE: AND HE TAKES
IT TO HER, AND HE SAYS,

“I CAN’T FIND THE BOOK
OF JOYCE IN HERE.”

JAI: GENESIS, EXODUS,
LEVITICUS, JOYCE….

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: THAT’S AWESOME.

THAT’S GREAT.

JOYCE: I NEEDED THAT LAUGH.

WHAT’S THE NEXT HARD QUESTION?

GINGER: OKAY.

THIS IS–I THINK–
THIS IS A GOOD QUESTION.

“CAN I GET INTO HEAVEN
WITHOUT GOING TO CHURCH?”

ERIN: YES.

JOYCE: YES.

JAI: YES.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

GINGER: NO, I WASN’T–
ANY MORE ANSWERS?

ANYONE WANT TO DISAGREE?

NO, I THINK THAT’S
SO IMPORTANT IS:

“WHAT GETS US INTO HEAVEN?”
IT’S NOT THAT I GO TO CHURCH.

IT’S NOT THAT
I DO EVERYTHING PERFECTLY.

SO, WE DO HAVE TO UNDERSTAND
CHURCH IS A GOOD THING.

CHURCH IS IMPORTANT FOR US.

IT TEACHES US,
IT GIVES US FELLOWSHIP.

IT’S WHERE WE GROW,
BUT IT IS NOT THE DOORWAY.

JOYCE: WE DON’T BUY
OUR SALVATION, WITH IT.

IT WAS BOUGHT WITH
THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

LISA: YEAH, THAT’S RIGHT.

BUT YOU WILL–I’M TELLING YOU,
YOU WILL HAVE SUCH A HARDER

ROAD TO HOE THAN IF YOU AREN’T
SURROUNDED BY COMMUNITY,

BECAUSE ALMOST ALL
OF THE IMPERATIVES

IN SCRIPTURE ARE GIVEN
IN THE CONTEXT OF COMMUNITY.

ERIN AND I WERE TALKING
ABOUT THIS OVER LUNCH,

ALMOST ALL OF THE VERBS
PAUL USES THE NEW TESTAMENT

ARE DOING, BEING, WALKING
VERBS THAT YOU NEED

TO BE DOING THIS TOGETHER.

AND TOGETHER–I MEAN,
THERE ARE SO MANY SEASONS

OF MY LIFE THAT I’M LIKE,
“I CAN’T CARRY MYSELF

TO THE ROOF.

I NEED SOME PEOPLE TO TAKE
UP THE CORNER OF MY MAT.

PRAY FOR ME,
CARRY ME TO THE ROOF

AND LOWER ME TO JESUS.”
SO, NO, CHURCH WON’T

GET YOU INTO HEAVEN,
BUT OTHER PEOPLE WHO

KNOW JESUS, MAN, THEY MAKE
THE WALK HERE ON EARTH,

SO MUCH SWEETER,
SO MUCH BETTER.

AND I THINK YOU GET UP FASTER,
OFF THE FLOOR, WHEN YOU

HAVE BELIEVERS AROUND YOU.

SO, I THINK SOMETIMES,
WE DO CHURCH

AS A COUNTRY CLUB,
WHICH IS GROSS.

BUT IF YOU RECOGNIZE
CHURCH AT SOME LEVEL

AS A SPIRITUAL HOSPITAL,
WE’RE ALL IN DIFFERENT

STAGES OF HEALING.

THEN YOU GO, “OH, I’M–WE’RE
IN THIS TOGETHER.”.

JOYCE: DON’T YOU LOVE
IT WHEN YOU ASK SOMEBODY

IF THEY’RE SAVED, AND THEY TELL
YOU WHAT CHURCH THEY GO TO?

LISA: OH, IT BREAKS MY HEART.

JOYCE: YOU KNOW THAT
THEY DON’T KNOW.

THEY THINK THAT GOING
TO CHURCH IS WHAT’S

GONNA GET ‘EM INTO HEAVEN.

LISA: I GO TO STARBUCKS
A LOT AND I’M NOT COFFEE.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

LISA: YOU KNOW,
IT DON’T MAKE YOU A CHRISTIAN

JUST TO SIT THERE.

JAI: I WANNA
BE COMPLETELY HONEST.

DURING MY HARD TIME,
I WAS ON STAFF AT A CHURCH,

AND I WAS REALLY LET DOWN.

LIKE, I WAS REALLY HURT
AND DISAPPOINTED

BY WHAT I FELT LIKE,
I THOUGHT THE CHURCH

WOULD DO WHEN SOMETHING
LIKE WHAT I WENT THROUGH,

WITH FINDING OUT
MY HUSBAND HAD AN AFFAIR,

THEN GOING THROUGH DIVORCE.

I JUST WANTED THE FOUR
WALLS OF–TO DO MORE FOR ME.

LISA: TO BE SAFER.

JAI: I WANTED TO FEEL SAFE.

AND I FELT SO UNCOVERED,
WHEN I WAS ALREADY, LIKE,

THE COVERING OF MY LIFE,
MY MARRIAGE, WAS RIPPED OFF

OF ME, AND THEN I FELT
UNCOVERED BY THE CHURCH.

AND SO, I WENT THROUGH
A LITTLE PHASE OF LIKE,

I WAS LIKE, ALMOST,
NOT GRATEFUL FOR THE PANDEMIC,

BUT I WAS LIKE,
I NEEDED A BREAK.

I NEEDED A BREAK FROM
FEELING LIKE I HAD TO DO,

DO, DO, DO, DO AT CHURCH.

BECAUSE, I WAS LIKE,
I’M DOING FOR THESE

PEOPLE THAT ARE ABUSING
ME AND AREN’T HELPING ME.

AND IT WAS VERY–SO I WENT
THROUGH THAT PHASE.

JOYCE: I HOPE, BY THEN,
YOU’D LEFT MY CHURCH.

JAI: OH, IT WASN’T–
IT WASN’T.

IT WAS NOT YOUR CHURCH.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

JAI: IT WAS NOT YOUR CHURCH,
LET ME MAKE THAT VERY CLEAR.

BUT–AND IT WASN’T EVEN JUST
THE PARTICULAR CHURCH.

IT WAS THE BIG “C” AT LARGE.

IT WAS THE PEOPLE I’VE DONE
MINISTRY WITH SO LONG,

YOU KNOW.

BUT I AM GRATEFUL.

AND THIS IS SOMETHING
I WANTED TO SAY, EVEN WITH

SOME OF THE OTHER QUESTIONS,
IS THAT ALL OF THIS IS ABOUT

A CHOICE TO BELIEVE.

IT’S A CHOICE TO UNDERSTAND THAT
SUFFERING COMES FROM SIN,

BUT IT’S ALSO A CHOICE
TO BUILD THAT COMMUNITY.

HAD I NOT HAD YOU,
YOU, YOU, I’M SURE YOU,

IN THE SPIRIT REALM,
BUT I’M SAYING THE CHURCH

BECAME PEOPLE TO ME.

ESPECIALLY WHEN,
WITH THE PANDEMIC NOT

BEING ABLE TO GO INTO A CHURCH.

I RESIGNED FROM THE ACTUAL
CHURCH I WAS WORKING, YOU KNOW,

BEING THE WORSHIP PASTOR AT.

BUT IF I DIDN’T HAVE
HUMANS TO HOLD ME UP,

I REALIZED IN MORE DEPTH,
IN THAT SEASON OF WANTING

TO BE MAD AT THE CHURCH,
THAT I WAS THE CHURCH,

THAT YOU WERE THE CHURCH.

JOYCE: AND CHURCH IS NOT
A BUILDING, IT’S PEOPLE.

JAI: EXACTLY.

JOYCE: WE’RE ACTUALLY,
HAVING CHURCH RIGHT HERE.

JAI: EXACTLY.

SO, I’VE ALLOWED GOD
TO REDEFINE WHAT

CHURCH IS TO ME.

SO, GOING TO A CHURCH,
OF COURSE, I STILL LOVE,

YOU KNOW, THE STRUCTURE
OF WESTERNIZED CHURCH,

BUT I LOVE COMMUNITY EVEN MORE,
REAL DEEP, REAL COMMUNITY,

MORE THAN I LOVE THAT.

GINGER: YOU SAID
SOMETHING ELSE.

YOU SAID THAT YOU GOT TIRED
OF DOING, DOING, DOING, DOING.

AND THERE–YOU KNOW, OF COURSE,
THE CHURCH IS FULL OF PEOPLE

WITH ALL SORTS OF HURTS
AND PROBLEMS OF THEIR OWN,

SO IT’S NEVER GONNA BE PERFECT.

BUT WE DO FEEL LIKE,
AND I KNOW I FELT IT MANY

TIMES IT’S MORE ABOUT
WHAT I’M DOING.

“AM I ACCOMPLISHING
THE RIGHT THINGS?

AM I DOING EVERYTHING
GOD WANTS ME TO DO?

AM I DOING WHAT THE CHURCH
NEEDS ME TO DO?

MY DOING WHAT MY FAMILY
NEEDS ME TO DO?”

AND THERE’S SO MUCH
PRESSURE IN ALL OF THAT,

THAT GOD DOES NOT PUT ON US.

THAT’S NOT WHAT HE’S ASKING.

LISA: RIGHT.

I THINK WE’VE GOT A LOT
OF PEOPLE WHO ARE ANGRY

AT THE CHURCH AND SOME
FOR GOOD REASON.

THERE’S AN OLD BOOK THAT SAYS
THAT “THE CHURCH IS THE ONLY

ONE WHO SHOOTS ITS WOUNDED.”
AND SO, WE’VE GOT A LOT

OF GROUND TO COVER.

BUT I’D SAY, FOR PEOPLE
LISTENING, WHO ARE LIKE,

“OH, WELL, MY CHURCH
BUGS ME TOO.”

INSTEAD OF LEAVING THE CHURCH,
PRESS IN AND BEGIN TO MODEL

WHAT CHURCH SHOULD BE,
WHICH IS A BROKEN,

BUT SAFE COMMUNITY WHO
CARES FOR ITS WOUNDED,

WHO PRAYS FOR EACH OTHER,
WHO DOES WHAT Y’ALL

DO IN COMMUNITY.

TAKE THAT TO YOUR LOCAL CHURCH,
BECAUSE HEBREWS DOES SAY

“DON’T GIVE UP THE HABIT
OF MEETING TOGETHER.”

YOU NEED TO BE IN FELLOWSHIP
AND THAT’S THE BRIDE OF CHRIST.

SO, I THINK, IT’S GOOD
FOR US TO GO, “BOY,

THERE’S A LOT OF PLACES
WHERE WE’VE MISSED IT,”

BUT INSTEAD OF–
I SEE WOMEN UNDER 40,

JUST THE CHURCH
IS HEMORRHAGING PEOPLE GOING,

“I’M JUST GONNA GO ONLINE.

AND THEN, I’M GONNA CHERRY
PICK MY FAVORITE PASTORS.”

AND I’M LIKE,
“NO, THAT’S NOT HEALTHY.”

YOU NEED TO BE IN A COMMUNITY
OF BELIEVERS.

BUT MAKE IT MORE GOD-HONORING
AND OTHERS-HONORING.

PRESS IN AND GO, “LET’S NOT
DO THIS LIKE THIS ANYMORE.”

BECAUSE I WAS–SORRY,
“BECAUSE I WAS WOUNDED,

YA’LL DIDN’T CARE FOR
ME THE WAY WE’RE SUPPOSED

TO CARE FOR EACH OTHER.”
I THINK, MAN, IT WOULD

BE SO GREAT.

IF THE–IF WE HAD YOUNG
BELIEVERS GO, “I’M RECOMMITTING

TO THE LOCAL CHURCH TO MAKE
IT THE WAY GOD DESCRIBES

IT TO WHERE IT’S A GOD
AND OTHERS HONORING PLACE.”

JOYCE: YOU KNOW,
I FEEL REAL INCLINED

TO SAY SOMETHING.

I JUST FEEL LIKE SOMEBODY
NEEDS TO HEAR THIS.

I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE
GO TO CHURCH SO THEY

CAN GET SOMETHING.

AND–SO, IF YOU’RE NOT
GETTING SOMETHING

OUT OF YOUR CHURCH,
MAYBE GOD’S GOT YOU

THERE TO GIVE SOMETHING.

SOMEBODY NEEDED TO HEAR THAT.

GINGER: YEAH.

YEAH.

ALRIGHT, ANOTHER HARD QUESTION:
“AFTER ABUSE,

HOW DO I TRUST AGAIN?

I’M STRUGGLING WITH INTIMACY,
AND I NEED HELP.”

JOYCE: WELL, I COULD
JUST GET REAL PLAIN HERE

AND TELL YOU WHAT GOD TOLD ME.

NOT TO BE TOO PLAIN,
BUT THE LORD JUST TOLD

ME THAT WHEN YOU HAVE SEX
WITH YOUR MARRIAGE PARTNER,

THE HOLY SPIRIT DOESN’T
LEAVE THE ROOM.

AND I WAS HAVING
A REALLY HARD TIME.

AND HE TOLD ME TO JUST MAKE
A COMMITMENT TO DO WHATEVER

HE TOLD ME TO DO.

AND HE WALKED ME THROUGH IT,
STEP BY STEP, BY STEP.

EVEN, AS FAR AS, LIKE,
A LITTLE SOMETHING,

LIKE, LEAVING THE LIGHTS ON.

AND IT WAS LIKE,
EACH STEP WAS HARD.

BUT SEE, THE HOLY SPIRIT
KNOWS WHAT YOU CAN TAKE, WHEN.

THAT’S WHY WHEN,
THE HOLY SPIRIT–

WHEN YOU TURN YOUR CASE
OVER TO THE HOLY SPIRIT,

HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT TO PUT
ON YOU TO DO AT WHAT TIME.

YOU GO TO–AND I’M NOT
AGAINST COUNSELING.

BUT YOU GO TO ANY OTHER
COUNSELOR, AND SOMETIMES,

THEY TELL YOU TO DO THINGS
THAT YOU’RE NOT…

LISA: QUITE READY.

JOYCE: READY FOR.

I HAD A WOMAN IN MY OFFICE,
THAT I WAS COUNSELING HER,

ONE TIME.

AND SHE WAS LIVING
WITH HER BOYFRIEND.

SHE’D JUST GOTTEN SAVED.

SHE WAS LIVING WITH
HER BOYFRIEND.

AND I MEAN, I JUST COULDN’T
WAIT FOR THIS WOMAN TO QUIT

TALKING SO I COULD TELL HER
SHE HAD TO QUIT LIVING

WITH HER BOYFRIEND.

AND I’M TELLING YOU,
THE LORD SPOKE TO ME.

AND HE SAID,
“DO NOT SAY THAT TO HER.

SHE IS NOT READY FOR THAT.

WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT,
I WILL TELL HER.”

SO, THERE’S NO BETTER
COUNSELOR THAN

THE HOLY SPIRIT.

AND WE HAVE TO BE CAREFUL
WHEN WE’RE GIVING PEOPLE

ADVICE THAT WE DON’T JUST
TELL THEM ALL THE BIG

GROWNUP ANSWERS.

LISA: RIGHT.

JOYCE: SOMETIMES, YOU HAVE
TO JUST LET THE HOLY SPIRIT

WALK A PERSON THROUGH IT,
ONE STEP AT A TIME.

AND THAT’S NOT AN EASY
THING TO DO, BUT IT DOES

TAKE STEPS OF FAITH.

GINGER: I THINK THAT’S
SUCH A BEAUTIFUL REMINDER

THAT THERE IS NOTHING OUTSIDE
OF THE REALM OF WHAT GOD

CARES ABOUT IN OUR LIFE.

LISA: THAT’S RIGHT.

GINGER: THE THINGS THAT
SOMETIMES WE THINK ARE TABOO

OR, YOU KNOW, WE SHOULDN’T
TALK ABOUT IN THE CHURCH,

NO, THERE’S NOTHING LIKE THAT.

AND THE FACT THAT GOD TOLD
YOU THAT HE WOULD HELP YOU

THROUGH THAT PROCESS
IS SUCH A RELIEF FOR

SO MANY PEOPLE RIGHT NOW.

JOYCE: I THINK,
FOR SO MANY PEOPLE,

THEY THINK THAT GOD LEAVES
WHEN THAT ACT, YOU KNOW,

IT’S LIKE, GOD CREATED IT.

YOU KNOW, THE WORLD
HAS TURNED IT INTO

SOMETHING DIRTY.

BUT GOD INTENDED IT TO BE ONE
OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL

THINGS THAT PEOPLE DO.

ERIN: THAT IS GONNA
CHANGE SOMEBODY’S LIFE.

BECAUSE WHAT THAT SAYS IS,
ESPECIALLY, WOMEN,

LIKE THAT’S A VERY
VULNERABLE EXPERIENCE.

AND SO, TO–WHY WOULD
GOD–WHY WOULD I THINK

THAT GOD WOULDN’T BE WITH
ME IN THAT, WHEN THERE’S FEAR,

OR PAIN, OR WHATEVER.

THAT’S–HE’S NOT GONNA LEAVE
AT THE DOOR WHEN I AM

WALKING THROUGH SOMETHING
THAT FEELS SCARY OR WHATEVER,

WHATEVER A PERSON
IS EXPERIENCING.

BUT TO REMEMBER,
HE’S RIGHT THERE WITH ME,

THIS SO BEAUTIFUL AND THAT–
JOYCE: AND WHEN YOU’VE

BEEN ABUSED, SEX IS ALWAYS
DIRTY TO YOU.

SO, YOU HAVE TO REALLY
LET GOD TEACH YOU THAT,

THAT’S WHAT THE WORLD
HAS DONE TO IT.

THAT’S NOT REALLY WHAT IT IS.

LISA: AND, JOYCE, TO BACK
THE BUS UP A LITTLE BIT.

I WAS–WE HAVE RELATIVELY
SIMILAR STORIES.

AND BECAUSE OF THE ABUSE
IN MY BACKGROUND,

AND MY OWN SIN,
AND THE WAYS I LEARNED

TO BE SELF-PROTECTIVE,
I NEVER MARRIED BECAUSE

I WAS SO AFRAID OF INTIMACY.

I COULD CALL IT A HUNDRED
DIFFERENT THINGS.

AND I WAS DRAWN
TO MORE ABUSIVE MEN.

SO, GOD PROTECTED ME FROM
SOME OF THE DECISIONS

I WOULD’VE MADE.

BUT IT TOOK ME UNTIL I WAS
IN MY FIFTIES, TO GO,

“NO, I STILL HAVE UNBELIEF.”
AND WHAT I’VE HAD TO LEARN–

I’M SO FAR BEHIND YOU,
IS I’VE HAD TO LEARN WHAT

IT IS TO BE HELD BY GOD.

BECAUSE IT’S MUCH EASIER
FOR ME TO GET THE HOLINESS

OF GOD, THAN THE INTIMACY
HE AFFORDS US IN JESUS.

AND SONG OF SOLOMON
CHANGED MY LIFE.

I’M NOT–I DON’T GET JIGGY
WITH ANYBODY WITH SKIN ON.

I’VE NEVER BEEN MARRIED.

BUT TO SEE
IN SONG OF SOLOMON 4,

WHERE HE SAYS, “THROUGH
THE BRIDEGROOM WITH ONE

GLANCE OF YOUR EYES,
YOU CAPTURED MY HEART.”

I’M REAL COMFORTABLE
DOING FOR GOD.

TO LEARN TO LEAN INTO
THE ARMS OF JESUS,

AND JUST BE HELD,
I THINK FOR SOME OF US THAT’S

THE FIRST STEP OF INTIMACY,
IS TO ACTUALLY LEARN

INTIMACY WITH JESUS.

GINGER: WOW.

AND THERE ARE SO MANY
DIFFERENT FORMS OF ABUSE.

YOU KNOW,
WHAT JOYCE WENT THROUGH,

WHAT YOU WENT THROUGH.

I HAD A GREAT RELATIONSHIP
WITH MY HUSBAND

WHEN I FOUND OUT,
QUITE A FEW YEARS AGO,

THAT HE HAD
A PORNOGRAPHY ADDICTION.

AND THEN YOU TALK ABOUT TRUST.

TRUST WAS INSTANTLY GONE.

AND SO, I HAD A LONG WAY
TO GO TO BUILD THAT TRUST

BACK UP AND TO FEEL RIGHT
IN INTIMATE SITUATIONS AGAIN.

AND IT WAS SO HARD.

AND THE THING THAT
GOD REALLY HELPED ME WITH

AND HELPED US TO BUILD
A RELATIONSHIP THAT IS NOW

BETTER THAN IT EVER WAS,
AND STILL HARD SOMETIMES

BECAUSE YOU KNOW,
THINGS ALWAYS CREEP BACK,

WAS THAT GOD WAS NOT ASKING
ME TO BUILD A NEW TRUST

IN MY HUSBAND, AT FIRST,
HE WAS ASKING ME TO TRUST HIM.

JOYCE: THAT’S EXACTLY RIGHT.

GINGER: I HAD TO TRUST
GOD FIRST.

JOYCE: THAT’S EXACTLY WHAT
GOD TOLD ME, “I’M NOT ASKING

YOU TO TRUST HIM.

I’M ASKING YOU TO TRUST ME.”
LISA: WOW.

JAI: AND I THINK THAT EVEN
APPLIES TO, EVEN THOUGH,

YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION
WAS ABOUT ABUSE.

I THINK IT ALSO APPLIES TO A LOT
OF CHRISTIAN WOMEN THAT

ARE STILL VIRGINS, OUT THERE,
THAT ARE AFRAID OF INTIMACY

BECAUSE–YOU KNOW,
LIKE, I KNOW I STRUGGLED

WITH THAT WHEN I FIRST
GOT MARRIED.

IT WAS LIKE, HOW DO I GO FROM,
YOU KNOW, A SAINT TO THIS

PERSON THAT’S SUPPOSED
TO BE PROFESSIONAL.

LISA: WEARING FISHNETS.

JAI: YEAH, LIKE,
I DON’T KNOW WHAT I’M DOING.

LISA: I HAVE WOMEN TALK
TO ME ABOUT THAT ALL THE TIME.

IT’S LIKE, “DON’T DO IT.

DON’T DO IT.

WHOO-HOO!”
JAI: THEN YOU’RE JUST

SUPPOSED TO KNOW WHAT YOU’RE–
LISA: I DON’T–I’M NOT SURE.

THAT’S A PROCESS.

JAI: YEAH, BUT I THINK THAT
THIS KIND OF CONVERSATION

DOES APPLY TO THAT AS WELL.

ALLOW THE HOLY SPIRIT
TO TEACH YOU, BECAUSE THAT WAS

A STRONGHOLD, IN OUR MARRIAGE,
FROM THE BEGINNING,

BECAUSE IT JUST–IT COULD–
IT WAS ALWAYS A SIN IN MY HEAD.

LIKE EVEN WHEN I WAS MARRIED,
LIKE IT WAS JUST

A SIN IN MY HEAD.

SO, YEAH.

GINGER: YOU GUYS
HAVE BEEN SO HELPFUL.

I MEAN, THERE ARE
SO MANY GOOD QUESTIONS.

WE COULD DO THIS ANOTHER
EPISODE SOMEDAY.

MAYBE, WE’LL COME BACK,
AND DO IT AGAIN, DOWN THE ROAD,

BUT THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING WOMEN.

JOYCE: WELL, THANK YOU
FOR LETTING US ANSWER

THESE HARD QUESTIONS.

GINGER: [LAUGHS]
YOU ARE VERY WELCOME.

ANYTIME.

WE’LL ALWAYS GATHER HARD
QUESTIONS FOR YOU

AND TOSS THEM YOUR WAY.

AND WE DO APPRECIATE
ALL OF YOU SENDING

IN YOUR QUESTIONS.

SO MANY MORE GOOD ONES HERE.

AND JUST REALLY PRAY FOR YOU,
WHATEVER IT IS THAT

YOU’RE DEALING WITH NOW,
BECAUSE SO MANY OF THESE

SITUATIONS COME BACK TO THAT
FOUNDATION OF WHO GOD IS.

NO MATTER WHAT THE DIFFERENT
THINGS ARE THAT HAVE

TOUCHED YOUR LIFE,
IT’S TRUSTING IN GOD

AND HIS LOVE FOR YOU,
AND THE FACT THAT HE’S GOOD,

AND THAT HE’S THERE WITH YOU.

SO, WE HAVE AN OFFER FOR YOU
THAT IS A GREAT THING TO GET,

TO DIG INTO WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS.

IT’S JOYCE’S BOOK CALLED
“UNSHAKABLE TRUST.”

IF YOU GO TO JOYCEMEYER.ORG–
JOYCE: [CLAPPING]

EW, I LOVE THAT BOOK.

I LOVE THAT BOOK.

[LADIES LAUGHING]

JOYCE: NO, I DO LIKE IT,
EVEN THOUGH I’VE WRITTEN–

I THINK IT’S PROBABLY ONE
OF THE BEST BOOKS I’VE WRITTEN.

GINGER: IT’S SUCH AN
IMPORTANT–IT IS, IT’S SO GOOD.

GO TO JOYCEMEYER.ORG/TALKITOUT.

YOU CAN GRAB THAT BOOK
AND ALSO FIND OUT MORE

ABOUT THE PODCAST,
WATCH OTHER EPISODES.

THANK YOU.

LOVE YOU ALL.

APPRECIATE YOU.

LISA: THANK YOU
FOR HAVING US.

GINGER: WE’LL SEE
YOU NEXT TIME.

JOYCEMEYER.ORG/TALKITOUT
IS A WONDERFUL PLACE.

GO THERE FOR TODAY’S RESOURCE,
TO CHECK OUT

ALL OF THE EPISODES,
AND TO GET TO KNOW

US A LITTLE BETTER.

PLEASE, DON’T FORGET
TO SUBSCRIBE WHEREVER YOU

LISTEN OR WATCH JOYCE MEYER’S
TALK IT OUT PODCAST.

AND LET US KNOW WHAT
YOU’RE THINKING.

YOUR VOICE IS IMPORTANT TO US.

[MUSIC]