In 1976, when God spoke to Joyce’s heart that she would someday have “a large teaching tape ministry,” she could have only imagined what would happen over the next four decades.
so in 1976 you began your ministry right
when all of that was happening back then
there’s no way you had any idea where
God would take it today right but let’s
let’s start with what was that seed that
began it all for you how how did you
know that God had something for you to
do that was different than you ever
expected you know people ask all the
time how do you know when God is calling
you to do something and it may sound
like a lame answer but you just know I
mean you know it’s like God puts such a
strong desire in your heart it’s almost
like you’re captivated by it and you
couldn’t hardly do anything else
captivated that’s a good word yeah and I
had had a real touch from God and I
won’t even go into trying to explain
that it’s just you know when you know
that God has touched you you know I mean
I just I really felt a strong sensing of
God’s presence and and I became more
interested in the word as a result of
that and then the more I listened to the
word the more I was amazed at what
people are really anointed to teach
we’re getting out of the word I had
heard the word of course in church but
little bits and pieces of it and not in
the way that I was hearing it now and
probably part of that was just me you
know when when God awakens you to his
presence then everything begins to be a
lot more meaningful to you and I was
listening to a what was then a cassette
teaching tape and it was 60 minutes long
and it was on the scripture and Mark
cross over to the other side and I was
just amazed that anybody could get a
whole hour of teaching out of one verse
and keep my interest and it was about
when Jesus said to the disciples he
gotten the boats that crossed over to
the other side and then in the midst of
that journey a storm of hurricane
proportions arose and it just so related
to my everyday life that you know you
you start to do something and then you
have these storms in life and so often
in those storms then we give up so at
the end of that teaching I was actually
making my bed just doing housework at
that point I had three children and and
Dave had gone off to work that day
worked in in the engineering field and I
just sensed God speaking in my heart or
putting a desire in my heart you know to
teach the word and I felt that this
dream came to me that I was going to go
all over the world and teach the word
which of course was in the natural
totally ridiculous and so many times
when God does speak something to us or
he calls us to do something to the
natural mind it is ridiculous but truly
with God all things are possible and
I’ve actually been meditating even this
week on Ephesians 3:20 where that says
that God can do exceedingly abundantly
above and beyond all that we could ever
dare to hope ask or think through his
power that works in us and so God does
great things but he does them through
people he works with people and I had no
idea before that of ever teaching the
word or doing anything like that and I
started a Bible study and that’s kind of
the way it began I always like to share
with people that you know we did those
Bible studies for five years not five
minutes or five days or five weeks but
five long years of doing that and I
studied so hard to teach back then which
was right because I really didn’t know
anything I hadn’t been to to Bible
School I didn’t know anything about
preaching nobody’s ever taught me how to
put together a sermon I mean I I can
truly say that what I’m doing I have
been led by the Holy Spirit God really
taught you how to do what you’re doing
right and then you know as David was
saying I started this Bible studying it
it first started as a result of the
place where I worked and so I invited
these twelve ladies that worked for me I
was the office manager to come to this
Bible study
and I didn’t know how to teach the Bible
I mean I remember when God put that on
my heart I went to my pastor and I said
if somebody’s going to teach a Bible
study where would they start and what
kind of books would you use and he
recommended a Thompson chain reference
Bible and he recommended starting in the
book of John and so those are my tools
and that was where I started John
chapter 1 verse 1 how many people that
are listening right now are exactly
where you are they just want to serve
God they’re doing that Bible study
faithfully and God honors that yeah and
you know somewhere in the midst of that
I had quit my full-time job at God’s
direction to have time to study to
prepare for this ministry that I felt
like I was going to have I always had a
sensing the ministry was going to be
quite large but you never know at that
time if that’s just your imagination a
pipe dream what you want or if it’s
really going to happen however like I
said when God does captivate your heart
with something it’s it’s almost kind of
hard not to believe it you know your
mind will tell you that’s crazy or the
devil speaking to your mind will tell
you that’s crazy but I I wanted to be
prepared and I didn’t I wasn’t prepared
I didn’t know that much and so I would I
would spend a lot of time studying a lot
of times studying and I just I usually
studied things that I was having
problems with and so I really didn’t run
out of material because I had a lot of
problems you know with a lot of things
and that’s why it’s so practical that’s
why it applies to people I certainly
what what in the natural wouldn’t have
seemed like Bible teacher material would
I know international you wouldn’t but
you always had the gift to teach no no
matter what from the very beginning she
had the gift to teach and I recognized
that and got but God kept her isolated
because she was dealing with all these
internal problems you know while she was
teaching she was learning through the
word how to deal with these problems how
to grow and deal with these problems and
then she was teaching to people the
things that she encountered she would
teach to the people and you know of
course we passed up one of the areas
where she taught in short shorts when
she first started out
smoked all the time we both smoked and
finally came to a point you know when we
first started for I guess it was maybe
the first four weeks or something that
and I thought this is not right her
teaching and shark sharks and I said I
don’t think he should be teaching in
short shorts and so anyway we change
that I wouldn’t know any better past
that point got past that point and they
really were wonderful wonderful days for
us they were just they were doing some
learning days of sharing you know ginger
one of the examples that I’ve used in
the last couple of years in teaching
that I think is a great example is if
you think about when you what does it
look like when God puts a dream or a
vision in your heart whether it’s to
minister or buy a new house or to be
married or get a certain level of
education you you always see the
finished product that’s what you see and
so you have a tendency to think that
you’re just going to move right into
that and it comes in pieces and so I’ve
used the example of getting like a 5,000
piece puzzle I’ve got this big puzzle I
use and it’s got this beautiful picture
on the front of it so when you go to buy
a puzzle you buy it because you like the
picture it’s kind of like having a
vision from God right but then when you
dump all those pieces out on the table
it’s like oh my what in the world have I
gotten into and in the process it takes
a long time to get all the pieces in the
right place and you know sometimes
you’ll even try to put a piece in a
place where it doesn’t fit and so did
you have some of that oh you try
sometimes it’s just for so many things
you know you feel all these things and
sometimes you get ahead of yourself and
one of the things that happened during
that period of time which was so
valuable for the future was we grew in
faith in that time because there was $40
short you know each month of paying our
bills well whether you’re 40 dollars
short or $5,000 short you’re short so
you can’t pay your bills
unless God miraculously takes care of
them and so we learned during that
period of time eventually we learned
that God was going to take care of it no
matter what the situation was and it
wasn’t to take for grace
that he was going to do that because you
always knew that you’re a $40 shirt but
you saw him and so it was a working
experience of learning that faith that
faith in God always he always delivered
and everyone came every month the bills
were paid yeah which is a foundation of
the military today that he taught you
don’t know how to handle those finances
and and really set up that premise that
you’ve never borrowed any money for the
ministry that you’ve always paid for
what you got and and that says so much
about who this ministry is that’s that’s
more in the wisdom area that that that
area but the faith area was the area
that hey we’re short and the only way
that’s going to happen is God’s got to
come through and we had no way to get it
unless God brought it and it was
something different I mean sometimes
somebody would you know say oh here I
felt like I told me to give you $20 or
you know maybe a relative would come to
visit and stay with us for a week and
they’d leave a $50 bill for groceries
after they left our or maybe we’d get a
refund on something we weren’t expecting
I mean it was just it was really amazing
to watch God work during that period of
time you know those five years were
really foundational and yours and and
healing for you too right
and healing you know I was going through
a lot I mean Dave and I were arguing all
the time and you know don’t probably get
mad but I got mad all the time and you
know just a lot of the stories that I
tell that people laughed so hard about
now you know and then another very
important stage of our journey and I
think it is important for people to
realize that everything you do including
life is a journey and and you have
seasons and you have stages of growth
and you have dormant seasons and you
have planting seasons and you have
harvest seasons and you have seasons of
digging up fallow ground and so there’s
a lot of different seasons in our life
we have to learn how to navigate all of
those and so
one of the seasons that was very very
important was that toward the end of
this five years first of all we had felt
like I felt like at first God wanted us
to have another baby and we had at that
time three well a ten-year-old a twelve
year old and a 14 year old and so
obviously our children were old enough
then that we could go out and do things
we didn’t always have to have a
babysitter and I just started getting
this real desire to have a baby that’s
that are you sure yeah it’s like are you
kidding well you know sure you want to
start all over and I said yeah I really
do and of course you know Dave he’s I
got on board he’s easygoing he’s just
like okay that’s what you want and sure
glad I did too that’s when we had Danny
because now he he oversees all this TV
in the media and all the operational
side of the ministry our other son David
oversees all the world missions and so
now I think my gosh it’s a good thing I
listen to God because I you know we
didn’t even we didn’t know really
everything that the future held but but
it is important to realize that at the
time that I started all this I had three
teenagers and a baby yeah and so
challenging yeah I don’t really care for
it when people say well you know I can’t
do anything I’ve got kids or you know
I’ve got a baby it’s amazing how desire
overrides everything else all the
impossibility just seem to fade away
when you have a strong enough desire to
do something and so I felt like that God
had put on my heart it was time to stop
the Bible study and the word I got was
behold I do a new thing well I felt for
sure it’s time for my promotion man
we’re going to something great it’s
going to happen now and so for one year
nothing happened and that was a very
testing confusing year for me I didn’t
understand well what is going on is God
finished with me now did I make a
mistake in in stopping but so many
things we don’t understand until after
we’ve walked through them I always like
to say that we live life
or word but we only understand it
backwards and I could look back now and
I realized that during that year God
really taught me the importance or he
started teaching me it’s not that I
didn’t have any more to learn about it
of just being yourself and I because I
was insecure from all the abuse in my
life I didn’t like who I was so I was
always trying to be somebody else
whether it was my pastor’s wife are more
like Dave or you know my pastor’s wife
was sweet and you know I had this rough
exterior and or my neighbor next door
was very homemaker
you know Sodor families clothes had a
garden and so I during that year it was
like I tried to have a garden I tried to
make my family’s clothes and he’s like I
tried all these things is that God was
not anointing me far you tried everybody
else on I guess he actually did not have
the garden I had the garden I dug the
girl I wish she probably thought I’d
added Tomatoes well I was my garden and
she going she was going to can them with
her next-door neighbor and that’s the
story in itself that was hilarious and
and then she did she did so a pair of
shorts for me and that was a disaster
and a shirt she sewed the shirt inside
out or no I him the sleeve as well and
it wrong and then the Sharks had pockets
longer than the shorts and so so now
you’re the one in short choices
yeah thank you you’re the one in short
shorts I said no I cut the pockets out
cut the pockets out I should have kept
his shorts I burned him I remember they
were gray with dark gray yeah
piping around the the edges but the
vaping that’s fancy isn’t it yeah but
the whole garden story is hilarious I
tell that a lot in in conferences were
just when these tomatoes were just ready
to pick and can I mean I had all my
equipment you know this was this big
plan I went out to look at the tomatoes
the morning we were going to harvest
them and a bunch of black bug said why I
don’t know if the bugs were black but
the holes were black they had eaten
these big holes in the tomatoes and so
they were just basically destroyed and
so I quick called my neighbor who
lived right next door I mean I could
have thrown a rock and hit her house and
I said oh my gosh our Tomatoes are
destroyed bugs got in got in them they
got big holes in them and so she went
out looked at her and called me back and
said there’s nothing wrong with mine
they’re totally fine
and so of course right away I started
complaining to God well you know why did
why did my tomatoes get holes in them
and her tomatoes are still healthy and I
mean honestly I heard God so clearly say
I never told you to grow tomatoes
therefore I have no obligation to
protect your Tomatoes and what a lesson
there is in that how many people get so
frustrated because they’re trying to do
what somebody else does and it works for
that somebody else because it’s right
for them but it doesn’t work for you and
you don’t understand you feel like God
is blocking you from success and
thankfully he does because we’d spend
our lives doing things that’s not what
God wants us to do and so during that
year of doing nothing I actually was
learning the importance of not trying to
be everybody else and that was really
important for where God wanted to take
us because he didn’t he didn’t want us
to copy somebody else and go do what
they were doing when you begin ministry
1976 and the years too followed what was
expected of women then was very
different than what God was calling you
to do and say I deal with that well I
totally when I started it I wasn’t even
cognizant of the fact that women didn’t
normally do that I mean I was just so
caught up and what I felt like God was
telling me to do and it was being
successful and you know always teasing
us say I didn’t know women couldn’t
teach till people started telling me
that they couldn’t write and so in this
church that we were going to they felt
like that I wasn’t supposed to be
teaching that Dave should be teaching I
remember going out of the church one
Sunday and the pastor looking at Dave
and he said brother you should be
teaching that Bible study not your wife
and what did you think when he said that
I mean how did you well I mean I you
know
at the same time him Santa time I’m
thinking you know that you know why did
God not give me the gift waited to give
it to her you know and so I’ve got that
in me a little bit inside that well I’m
gonna do it you know and so I I tried
and it didn’t work just I didn’t have
the ability to teach and so uh always
safer for a couple weeks Dave tried to
talk and I tried not to it either one
work I wasn’t good at not talking and so
we continued to have the Bible study and
eventually left that church and went to
what they can’t what was Life Christian
Center is this still at that point where
you’re questioning you know what does
God have for me now because you’re
you’re in that year where it’s right
it’s been quiet I guess where you didn’t
know what was coming next I still had a
I still felt like God wanted to use me I
mean I still felt like I still had this
dream I was still studying we were still
struggling financially you know I was
confused all the things that that people
go through and so they asked me if I
wanted to start a women’s Bible study at
this church and I really didn’t want to
start a women’s Bible study because I
specifically felt like that God had
given me a scripture in Philippians two
that I was to hold out to all men the
Word of God so I never really felt
called just to teach women I really felt
like that the same word was for
everybody and that I was going to teach
everybody not yeah not just women and so
at first I wasn’t going to do the Bible
study and then I remember thinking well
God’s not opening up anything else this
has opened up so I probably should take
the opportunity and they advertised it a
little bit and I mean this was just a
miracle from God the first one that we
had was on a Thursday morning and what
Dave calls a little Church in the valley
which it was just a little tiny building
Church and a hundred and fifteen people
came and it was like where did all these
people come from
and it was the start of something pretty
major and it was just God it was it was
that promotion from God the five years
of the Bible study the year of doing
nothing and you know those are like
hanging on years and holding on years
those are times when Jesus has said
let’s cross over to the other side and
now you’re in the hurricane type storm
and it feels to you like Jesus is asleep
in the bottom of the boat and you don’t
know what’s going on but then you still
have this strong thing in your heart
during this time I’m still in the
engineering field and and they start
having lots of meetings at this church
and they have camp meetings and
week-long you know we are going to
church a lot I’m going to work and I’m
coming home we’re going to church and
going to work coming home going to
church and it’s just it’s a continuous
thing for a long period of time I want
to ask you I want to ask you a question
about that too because Joyce talked
about God calling her and and her having
that strong desire God obviously called
you too this is your ministry together
how did you begin to see your role in
this you’ve been told it should be you
and not her how did you begin to see
what God really had called you to do in
all of this first a first I you know for
like I said I fought with it for a
little while and then I realized that
and God really impressed upon my heart
that if you want a you want my joy my
peace and my grace then you have to do
what I’ve called you to do and so I
began to realize that that was not the
thing that I would be doing but yet I
told the guys in the engineering field
that I would not always be here working
in an engineering field eventually I was
going to be in ministry and I didn’t
know exactly what aspect of ministry I
was going to be in but I told that and
actually when I left when I left the
engineering company and began this is
further down the road but just to give a
little prefix here I
the guy said you know how long you you
know how long
you’ve been saying it and I said no he
said seven years I said oh that’s good
I said that’s God’s perfect numbers so
anyway we’ll go back to this now so so
we’re in gret on graboid McKenzie and I
don’t know what definitely my definition
for the ministry is going to be
yeah justo I’m still on the sidelines so
speaking and God’s got me there and I
know I’m not supposed to be doing
anything yet because the ministry our
aspect in ministry hadn’t started yet we
were still when our income came from
Dave you know I was teaching this Bible
study but they gave me a very small I
don’t know I think I think I initially
got like $65 a week you know and so I
did that for a long long time and then
after a while they asked me if I wanted
to come on staff at the church and the
Bible study was growing it was like 300
and then 400 450 and it actually got up
to about 500 women every Thursday
morning so it was you know quite a
substantial kind of the talk of the town
and Christendom and and there was a real
move of the spirit back then too as like
people were being touched by God in
every denomination I mean we had
Catholics Methodists Presbyterians
Baptist Pentecostals I mean just all
kinds that’s awesome
people were coming and they were
filtering through the minister did God
called her to threw that into the church
so it’s hard in the church crunch is
helping the church grow the church grew
on its own but that was happening
because helping I remember we were
driving in there for the dedication
service of the new building and God
spoke to my heart and said I’m finished
with you here now right and I thought
was that a shock for you were you well I
was kind of insulted I thought well you
know you’re finished with me I mean I
don’t build this wooden I don’t open it
I was trying to promote her she was
insulted but the thing was it’s so
interesting how we are as human beings
it’s like I wasn’t satisfied anymore I
felt like God was calling me to
something else so it’s like I wanted I
wanted to do more but I wanted to do it
through that Avenue and that just wasn’t
going to work you know I mean I remember
even going to the pastor
saying you know can I go on to the radio
station kind of write a book and and you
know he was like you know you work for
me and you’ve got to be part of this
vision and and you know so finally I
just so you were on radio at this time
one station my church the church put her
on radio he was on radio her and the
slot next to him opened up and so I
think he kind of wanted to keep the
whole slot for the church so he asked me
if I wanted yet so I was on I started on
WC b/w one 15-minute radio slot once a
week yeah that was the beginning of my
great media ministry and so then then we
God said I’m finished with you here and
so I still didn’t get finished for a
little while so yeah because she she had
soul ties and she really didn’t
recognize that it was soul ties until
somebody she asked somebody that or
somebody informed her that you know what
why are you wanting to go back to the
church all right
so when you say soul ties so like I an
emotional connection that she had you
know she had like she said she had her
own seat her own office her own little
plaque like rejoice fire you know in
their own parking place and and so that
you know and all the people that you
worked with there you know that that was
you know kind of pulling her back so God
was telling us to leave he was telling
us but I was you know I was – I was
saying you know we can’t go back we’ve
got to we’ve got to go do what God just
called us to do now because I’m not
leaving your comfort zone leaving your
security yeah sure exactly that’s what I
really felt like that God had it might
probably need to back up a little bit
you know it was like I kept getting more
and more miserable and I was less and
less interested in the meetings at the
church and the business meetings things
I used to love it was like now is just
like oh my gosh isn’t that interesting
how that changes mm-hmm what we used to
love is no longer as important to us
because God is taking us no longer image
and I didn’t realize what it was but God
was withdrawing the grace for me to be
there
and it was just basically time for me to
leave I had done what he wanted me to do
there I had learned what he wanted me to
learn there and I learned a lot there so
I went home and started a fast always
joking side decided I was going too fast
on water until I heard from God he spoke
to me in an hour I sure was glad I mean
I heard
I actually saw I don’t know how you see
words but I mean I I clearly saw that I
was to take the ministry and go north
south east and west and I got so excited
then we began to start meetings in
different places like we did we did
meetings at south east and west east st.
Louis South Santa Clara yeah in
different days of the week in different
weeks of the month you know and it was
crazy it was great on first Thursday we
were here the second when they were here
hours Monday we were here Tuesday we
were here Belleville we did Belleville
Illinois which was our East meeting we
did that every week we went every
Tuesday morning every Thursday for years
every Wednesday night somewhere else and
while we were going and doing these
meetings well what the income that came
in from those meetings we began to buy I
began to buy radios I get you were still
working you’re getting ahead of yourself
well yeah okay but those meeting ok
those meetings lasted for well started
started and we had two meetings what and
I was I was in the engineering field and
then then things started to get pretty
overwhelming because for me uh we were
we had a few people working for us we
had finished the Lord we didn’t even
know we finished the lower level of our
house off the basement of our house off
and we didn’t know that all of a sudden
ministry was going to take over our
house the lower level rouse but we
removed the ministry into what was
Danny’s room originally and then it
moved into our family room downstairs
and family room it and then it moved
into our bedroom downstairs the
duplicate the location that is over
taking you to our bedroom downstairs and
during this period of time I’m still in
the engineering field and you’re working
I’m working on kids
yeah I’m running all over the place I’ve
gotta bury me I’ve got teenagers I’m
coming back home and you know I’m
involved but I’m not involved full time
and then and then Joyce is saying this
is overwhelming I can’t handle this you
know and so I finally I told her I’m
gonna quit in six months and so finally
we got to that six months point and
that’s when the guy told me you’ve been
saying this for seven years and you’re
finally doing it and so is the first day
I start in the ministry the first day I
say okay what do you want me to do he
came downstairs and sat down at his desk
and said what do you want me to do and
and so we taught him how to do payroll
right it’s the first thing I did payroll
at first and uh and how many employees
did you have at this point
Oh maybe five Baruchel and they started
helping you with mail and things like
that mail and just we have we had a guy
that did the radio program and that was
in a closet that was actually our son’s
bedroom closet where we did our any
calls that was your studio that was our
studio we had all would come in the
calls would come in there yeah and we we
had we had phones all over the house and
so I always say it sounded like a bookie
joint or something when the phone would
ring because it would ring everywhere
you know and we had one girl that opened
mail and one girl that that duplicated
the cassette tapes and I don’t know if
they all even worked full-time but they
all had their little job choir our
employees they parked in different parts
of the street you know so it didn’t look
so suspicious and they’ve come down with
their little brown bags you know lunch
bags and come into our house and it’s
like people are thinking okay what are
you doing over there is parking in the
neighborhood later
yeah in the neighborhood and coming down
and it worked in our house no fruit this
is for I don’t know the first time we
rented the first time we decided that we
were going to go rent some office space
I mean that was like a huge or a huge
step of faith you know and I mean
everything was a huge step of faith when
Dave quit his job yeah I mean I still
remember he was making thirty two
thousand dollars a year or thirty four
thirty four thousand dollars a year and
so we’re like mean that you can imagine
I mean we needed better
yeah so God had to do something and and
our income increased verse mother coming
in from the ministry the first month
that amount of money that is miraculous
I mean it didn’t all come in but it was
like month after month in a year right
it came to that and really we just we
had a little letter that we sent out
once a month you know telling people
where we were going to be and you had
the income from the teaching tapes and
you know what a little bit came in from
the radio and you know we were still
just barely getting by and I mean some
of these people that work for us they
made fifty dollars a week and you know
60 dollars a week and he I mean just
yeah just barely so then we want to
we’re looking for space and so we go to
the Biltmore 300 and they’ve got 1,700
square feet of space well for us 1700
square feet of space look like man that
looked like a monster’s space and we
walked around in that and I said whoa
what was Ames to do with this it’s
amazing
and so we’re starting to do conferences
like further out like we go to Quincy
Illinois we go to K tirado
we go to Kansas City anywhere we could
drive we talk on we go up to Mount
Vernon any anywhere within a certain
radius you know the where we couldn’t
didn’t maybe go that far in so and I
answered all the mail back then I would
sit in my office with a little
typewriter and answer all the mail and I
would set up all the conferences all the
conferences so I was doing the
conference’s I was doing for back then I
by then I think I the payroll somebody
else was doing a payroll yeah I was
doing the conference’s and I was buying
all the radio time I was contacting all
the managers in the beginning stages
that was growing there were more right
well here we had ones we had meetings of
100 people 70 people 150 people
I mean you can look at my journals from
back then and I just believe in God that
anybody would come and scared out of my
wits half the time that nobody would
come I mean you talk about a journey of
faith in us I mean everything from the
finances we needed to the people coming
to God providing the employees we needed
it was I mean it was just we needed
you know we needed to get on radio
stations and so the we were under one
radio stations w CB W and then we we
needed to bio the radio stations and so
I bought a pack of six radio stations I
didn’t know how good these radio
stations were well fortunately a couple
of more pretty good the one was the
sister state didn’t buy the stations he
bought time on this a time on the
stations through the station managers
well as time went by I began to learn
how to research stations and one of the
ways that our research stations was I
got other ministries that were on radio
there magazines and found out what
stations they were on and how long they
were on them and so I if they were on
them in a long period of time I knew
they were probably pretty good station
yeah that’s right that’s pretty wise
yeah and so I started and I got to know
all the managers and talk with all the
managers and if a station didn’t produce
within a certain amount of time then I
would after you know in the beginning of
stages is very difficult to get on the
station because nobody knew Joyce and so
I had to send them demo tapes and you
know they just put him under desk they
wouldn’t play him and it once in a while
I’d be able to get on the station well
if I got on the station and you know it
was great you know the station that I
wanted to get on and so eventually it
started word got around that she was a
good teacher and so it was easier to get
on the station so you know then I could
call stations and get on them or if he’d
say well you know we’re on this station
they’re like oh well if you’re on there
and so it was easier to get on stations
and so so we grew all the way up to 150
stations and you know during that period
of time all we did was work we did
anything else but work we worked we
worked we worked we were out every night
doing a meeting somewhere we were trying
we were sitting on the office all day
and you might wonder where our kids are
at during all this time so just for the
sake of people listening I don’t want
everybody to think we just abandoned our
kids and ignored them you know we we
still took good care of our children
they were three of them were in high
school one of them had graduated and he
went off to Bible School in Florida and
then he eventually came back to work
with us and and we had our little boy
who you know we talked about was the
baby earlier and he went to school at
one of the Christian schools and so I’d
get him up in the morning get him
take school go pick him up after school
do homework go do you know me is the
midst of life with all yeah yeah and I
doing what everybody does and when when
we were traveling we did have somebody
that offered to help with our kids but
we didn’t travel for long periods of
time then we’d go out and come back or
be gone two days and come back and then
we took him with us a lot as much as we
could
a lot of our trip for one day we go out
we do the meeting when we come back
that’s a night he’ll do the meeting that
evening and drive back that same night
which was long days I mean you’re
retired when you got back so is all this
is growing and you’re you’re watching
God really really feeding this were you
always in agreement was it always not
necessarily well I would think there
would be some yeah big decisions to be
made there was there there was but I
mean there was a really good flow to it
because she did things and the ministry
and I did things in the ministry and you
know I was I was setting up all the
conferences I was all the hotel
ballrooms I had to call hotels and make
sure that we had ballrooms and a lot of
times when you know I mean we couldn’t
fly to these places or drive to these
places so we’d have to somehow find out
what were the best hotels that we
couldn’t go see them ahead of time so we
know once in a while we’d get a hotel
the shingles were falling off or the
roofer had some awful place one where
the where the air conditioning wasn’t
working and a guy was in the middle of
the meeting he was climbing up and up
climbing up in the ceiling which is
about 20 feet high you know trying to
fix the air conditioning and one where
where it was raining and water was
coming down by the curtain where she was
teaching it was just a lot of a lot of
excitement we had we probably had
hundreds and hundreds of meetings that
were between 100 and 200 people yeah you
know I was so busy teaching and studying
to teach that that between that and and
I probably dealt with most of the people
issues in the office so dealing with all
that higher
in firing organization that kind of
stuff and he was pretty busy with the
radio and all the whole gist setting
everything the logistics and the the
buying all the equipment buying buying
everything that we needed yeah
everything that we bought over the years
everything we bought when I was in
charge was I would not allow Department
they have a budget because I didn’t want
a bunch of bells and whistles I wanted
to do I wanted to buy things that we
were actually needed and so that we
would use the money wise and we saved
and paid cash we have requisitions they
would present me with requisitions and I
would determine do we really need this
you know and so during that period of
time it kept us you know to where we
would not you know waste money and so on
you know God really bought well it was
smaller he could do that I mean nothing
was spent that he didn’t put his
initials on it and there was times where
I even had to stop spending period
because of if it looked like we were
getting ahead of ourselves to where we
did weren’t gonna have the finances I
wasn’t gonna allow that to happen so I
would stop spending period for a period
of time until we got caught up when did
God give you those basic tenets of what
the ministry needed to be all about that
if you would stay faithful in these
areas again the very beginning when when
we just after I left my job at Life
Christian Center I mean I so clearly
remember God put in my heart if you will
three things I’m going to tell you and
if you do them I’ll be able to bless you
keep the strife out of your life which
even meant really at home I mean Dave
and I early on learned that we couldn’t
fight behind the scenes and be having
trouble and expect things to be good out
in public you know it just doesn’t work
I mean your life as a whole and you
can’t be one thing here in something
else
great somewhere else and do what you do
with excellence which I it’s interesting
that God said that to me because it was
not any it wasn’t anything that I’d ever
pondered or thought about you know but
do what you do with excellence and
that’s not extravagance but it does mean
to do the best
can and everything that you do and then
be a person of integrity don’t play
games with the money that passes through
your hands and always do what you tell
people that you’re going to do and you
know those things are not always easy to
do you know you have to it it was a good
thing that God did speak those to us so
clearly because even just keeping the
strife out of your life you know
sometimes you feel more like arguing
than you do have in peace and yet to be
faithful to that word that God spoke we
knew we needed to stay in peace and and
you know the price of it we knew the
price of anything like that ain’t it
that’s not to say we we did never happen
but if it did happen you learned your
lesson and you know the consequences of
it and you know as especially with Joyce
you know when she was teaching she just
it would affect the anointing in science
could associate you know that could not
happen you know well then we have seen
so many teachers preachers have
integrity issues we see so many people
be one thing in the pulpit and another
thing somewhere else and and we know
that that’s not what God wants for any
of us in our lives no matter no matter
what we are no matter who who we deal
with but those things in your life have
really been building blocks or their
ministry and so many reasons that God
has blessed the way I can honestly say
that Dave and I both have a healthy
reverential fear of God which is
something the Bible says is the
beginning of all wisdom I don’t mean
like afraid of God in the wrong way
but I do know that God is God and that
he means what he says and I’m also very
aware that everything that we’re doing
is totally dependent on God and I mean
he could trust me takes a lot longer to
build something that it can take to come
down if God doesn’t keep we’ve seen them
supporting it and come down you know get
strong strong grow strong real fast and
then fall down yes
yeah that’s a lesson in itself I mean
that teaches you know you know God’s in
control and
do things his way and he’ll bless you
don’t do things his way and you’re in
trouble you’re living dangerously and so
and you know I thank God that we grew I
didn’t thank God while we were growing
so slowly that was very hard but I look
back now and I and I I’m thankful that
God didn’t let me do what I wanted to
when I wanted to do it because although
I had a gift I was still very much in
need of developing more godly character
and that’s where a lot of people do make
a mistake they get an opening to go out
and do something because they’re gifted
and you know as leaders we can even be
guilty of putting somebody in a position
long before they’re ready for it
spiritually and it really is just like a
disaster waiting to happen
and so it took a long time I mean a long
time and a lot of hard work next coming
up here pretty soon I will have been
teaching the word 40 years so the things
we’re talking about happened 40 years
ago and 35 years ago and 30 years ago
and and it’s just like I mean we could
sit here and talk for months and months
and months about all the different
things that happened and the the
challenges and the good times and the
scary times and the joyous times and
raising kids in the midst of all this
and it’s it’s been a been a wonderful
journey and yet at the same time a very
challenging one I think a lot you know
my motto was slow and solid fast and
fragile God gave me that years and years
ago and I think many people would look
at our ministry and say it’s been
phenomenally fast growth and it they
only see you know the explosive growth
of years after we went on television
they don’t see the pre years or their
foundational years that created the
foundation for the ministry to stand on
and you know the N if people have been
in the year in ministry 40 years and
they haven’t had growth like that then
it
looks like explosive growth and you know
God’s got a different plan for everybody
and so we were we were black were
blessed to be doing what we’re doing and
so we don’t take it for granted and one
of the things that we said in the very
beginning was we don’t want our ministry
to be cloned after somebody else’s
ministry we want it to be what the Holy
Spirit wants us to do we want to follow
the lead in the Holy Spirit let us let
him show us exactly what we do or
supposed to do we didn’t know what all
that meant but he did over the years he
would show us this show us that show us
something else in and all that put
together so you’re getting more and more
people at your meetings they’re growing
you’re traveling further and further out
you’re on radio when did you begin to
think television is the next logical
step well we’re actually uh we’re on our
meetings had grown from 200 to 400 to
500 700 and finally in Tulsa we had a
meeting while we’re on radio of a
thousand people and I mean that was
amazing for us to have a meeting with
thousand people we had never had
anything like that and during this time
we had a broad idea of going on
television and we thought we’re going to
go on television and so we went on some
charter stations and you know at that
studio and what we could do it filming
and it was a situation where Joyce was
going to ask questions and and the flip
the first television program was going
to be on fear where she was going to ask
questions of people actually people from
our ministry and they were going to
share on you know how they experienced
fear and how they dealt with fear well
Joyce would ask the questions and then
she’d answer the questions and the
people just step there they didn’t do
not have it I was the very good at
interview and so obviously that did not
go over big and it was a bright idea
what six God’s we got one piece of mail
yeah it wasn’t God telling us to go on
television we just had a broad idea we
don’t do it and obviously it didn’t work
well we were probably starting to sense
something from God but just got way
ahead of the timing definitely got way
ahead of timing and then then
we’re having our meetings at a place
called should two hearts banquet Center
in st. Louis and that grew to about 400
people and I’m thinking these meetings
are getting big and Joy’s the teachings
are tremendous teachings but they’re
gone forever
if nobody can see them you know they’re
getting them on consent and so they’re
yeah we were recording
you know recording the more we weren’t
we didn’t have any video and so I went
out and bought a camera I decided I’m
going to go out and buy a camera and I
spent a pretty good sizable amount of
money to buy a camera and usually when
we bought something like that Joyce and
I discussed it but I thought you know I
got to get this camera and so there she
was doing something and I needed to get
it right away and so I got the camera
night old and she said why did you do I
got aggravated at night I said why she
said why did you do that and I said well
I said what you’re teaching is gone
forever if we don’t capture it on we
didn’t even have anybody to run the
camera we didn’t even know we were gonna
do with it so we had a camera well we
had a camera we had somebody from Life
Christian Center came over and I went
there to run it Ryland volunteer to ruin
and little did I know what God was up to
three weeks later I’m in the bathroom
getting ready to go to the office and
all of a sudden the Lord opens up my
heart to sense the hurts of the world I
guess the way he was sensed a little bit
you know I’m sobbing I’m just just out
of out of the blue I had a blue I mean
just out of blue I’m getting ready to go
to the office and I’m sobbing and I’m
thinking and God says I prepared you all
this time to go on television and you
know it’s like I’m vision and you know
he’s speaking to me inside and I’m
thinking television there’s no way we
can go on television I you know that
this cost too much there’s no way we can
do that and I see this hand on a spigot
and he said if I if I turn this off you
can’t even do what you’re doing now but
if I turn it up you can do everything
that I asked you do it and I’m thinking
God’s going to provide for it and so I
realized that God’s going to provide for
it and so I told she came in the
bathroom and I told her I said
I need to talk to you and she said can
we do this later I need to go to the
office I said you know we need to talk
now and I said God has told me we need
to go on television we need to do it and
she bore witness I share with her
everything that happened to me and so
that’s when we decided we’re going to go
on television and and she she bought
with witness with it and you know we
didn’t we didn’t know how we’re going to
get the money so we decided well we’re
going to send out we had a mailing list
of 70,000 people that at that time and
we we thought well we will send out to
our mailing list we figured we need we’d
need a half a million dollars to start
that’s the only way we could start
because we needed to build a studio we
needed to you know do different things
and we need to have another camera and
so we sent out to our mailing list and
exactly a million a half million dollars
came in and so you know we didn’t even
know we needed a producer at that time
we have we were so ignorant of what we
were supposed to do and how we were
supposed to do it but God let us
step-by-step introduced us to people and
you know finally we learned you know we
need a producer we learned we need to do
this we need to do this and the first
television program that we filmed it was
so primitive that you think how in the
world would anybody even watch this
because it looked like we had a shot
well it was a shower curtain but a
shower curtain behind Joyce we’re in
this room where they had sprayed
insulation and it was falling off the
ceiling the sprayed insulation hanging
down and falling off the one camera one
camera and we shot this we bought we
bought ten stations and we decide to go
on weekly at first that’s the only thing
we could afford so we decided to go in
weekly and we did that for about six
months and we thought it’s doing good
it’s doing all right
and I I said well why don’t we go on I
want we go on daily on some of these
stations so we we said okay we’re going
to go on daily on some of these stations
so we did and what we did that it had
just exploded and with within a month or
two months every station that we went on
paid for itself and was was surplus so
we could go on more stations and we were
just buying up time like crazy and going
on
stations and the mail in the the
response was overwhelming and so this
this was the beginning of the television
ministry and it was it was just beyond
anything we could ever expect up to
today where you’re reaching yeah to some
thirds of the world so many potential
people and and we hear stories every day
of people whose lives have been
completely turned around hearing his
word through your teaching when you look
at those forty years that are behind you
and and what you’re seeing today just
the gratitude just overflow do you just
feel overwhelmed sometimes he actually
isolates us from seeing the greatness of
the ministry yeah he and we’re thankful
for that because we don’t we don’t need
to hear all how great we are or anything
because we know it’s God in right
it’s His grace that has really given us
the ability to it not only to to do what
we’re doing but also to not be
your trowel or haughty or proud or think
that we’ve done anything because we know
it’s it’s everything by him and he
started at all and he can stop it
instantly if he wants to and so we’re
basically keeping in our
pedal-to-the-metal as long as he wants
us to and while we’re in this world
because this is just a temporary
situation and we want to take as many
with us as we can I actually feel like
sometimes this may sound odd but I
almost feel like I’m two different
people you know like I’m Joyce Meyer and
then I’m Joyce Meyer and I mean you
actually almost it just takes so much
grace to do that much work that it’s
like it’s almost not like you doing I
mean you are doing it but God is so
involved that you’re so aware that if it
wasn’t him but there’s no way that you
could ever pull it off I mean like I
said you know I’m getting tired just
listening to us tell everything that we
did
and I mean there’s no way to describe
how hard we worked the things we went
through in the midst of that I had
breast cancer had never breast removed I
had a hysterectomy
I couldn’t take hormones because of
having had the cancer I went through the
change of life early I had migraine
headaches for 10 years we’re raising
kids we’re raising teenagers we’re going
through all the same stuff that
everybody else goes through with their
kids
you know we had kids getting married
plus whatever plus we’re hiring 110
people each year plus were building a
building or building a building that the
building that we’re building you know in
the process of designing the building I
I wanted to build so much the building
so big and then I was going to
structurally I was getting making it so
I could add a floor onto it and spread
the wings out on it and we’re into we’re
into the plans almost done with the
plans and I realized we’re growing so
fast we’ve got them we’ve got to build a
whole building so we scrapped the plans
and we redraw the plans to do the whole
building at one time we were going to
build 75,000 square foot we end up build
150,000 square foot at one time right
off the bat that’s a little far away
from the 1,700 square feet we were
afraid the rent yeah
how will you fill all that space that we
didn’t know how we’re going to fill it
all up and Dave did all that building
stuff you know from working in the
engineering field he was good at all
that and I really didn’t I mean I didn’t
get involved really in any of that
because I was just running all over
creation teaching of course he went to
everything you know that we did and I
just I had this growing desire in me to
help people help people help people help
people help people and so in addition to
all the television way way back like in
the very beginning like 30 years ago we
started setting aside money to help the
poor with God put that in our heart and
so we started even right here in our own
city help him do inner city ministry and
contributing to other people that had
inner city ministries too you know and
then we started different missions and
got involved with different missionaries
and we would support different people
that had different works around the
world and so now you know we’re involved
in I don’t know probably 150 nations and
I don’t even know how many different out
reaches with
orphanages and feeding programs and yeah
water wells and schools it’s such an
integral part of the ministry well it’s
very very important I mean other than my
teaching that’s probably the most
important thing to me is just being able
to to help people you know Jesus always
he always taught the word and he helped
hurting people and so you help people
with the word but you also need to help
them in a practical way like I say a lot
of times many people are hurting so bad
that they couldn’t even hear the word if
you didn’t help them first with their
practical situation and you know it’s
been our great privilege to do what
we’re doing I thank God that very few
days go by that I don’t thank God for
letting me teach the word and yes it’s
been a lot of hard work and probably one
to give up a million times in the
process and you know when you’re in the
public eye like we are you you get
judged you get criticized you have you
know people that aren’t so kind but in
them even with all that we’ve met so
many amazingly wonderful people whose
lives have been changed by the word that
you know the few who caused you problems
are really nothing compared to all the
ones that that you get to help and so
you know our desire is is to continue
doing what we’re doing in some form or
fashion until Jesus takes us home people
ask all the time are you thinking about
retiring or what are you going to retire
and I don’t know how you retire from a
call on your life it’s not like not like
having a job and so now at certain age
you retire I mean I just want to do I
mean we have to make changes we have to
keep making adjustments you know can’t
work as hard as we used to don’t don’t
need to don’t want to always say I don’t
work harder I work smarter and of course
you know in the myths
I’ve written 100 and probably 15 books
now and so that was another homework
project that was going on in the midst
of all these other things is writing all
these books and you know I really want
to leave a hundred big solid books as a
legacy to the body of Christ and so
we’re still working on them and
hopefully out of all the ones that we
have we can the very best will remain
because a lot of the books that I read
now are two and three hundred years old
and they’ve just helped me tremendously
so I hope a long time after I’m gone
if Jesus Terry’s that people still be
continuing to to read my books you do
have a lot more time ahead of you who
knows where God is going to take all
this yeah I don’t I’m not quitting or
slowing down you know yeah we’re we’re
still running full throttle we’re you
know like Joe says we’re not working
harder but smarter and you learn over a
period of time what’s the best way to do
things to accomplish the most well it
really is that authenticity I think that
so many people are drawn to and in the
two of you and and in the ministry
because I mean hanging out with both of
you is just like hanging out with Lucy
and Desi and you’re hilarious for one
thing you’re just you’re just yourselves
you’re very real and you just have a lot
of fun in what you do you guys have a
great time we do yeah we’ve got our own
little you know after almost forty nine
years of marriage you develop your own
little method of a little quirky mother
working old methods of getting along and
I tell people all the time I don’t know
what I preach if I wasn’t married today
because he gives me an opportunity to
apply every message that I’ve ever
preached and it’s amazing the things
that people fight about when they’re
young that you laugh about yeah when you
when you get older but I do know that
it’s very important that we remember
where we came from and that it is God
doing this I’m very you know obviously
we work hard and we’re partners with God
and I do believe that a lot of people
get themselves in trouble because the
more successful they become the more
they begin to take liberties that they
have no business taking and one of the
things that God has taught me over the
years it is extremely important to him
as how we treat people and I know that I
fail miserably at times and always
treating people the way that I should
but I just think that that really
supports the anointing on your life
I think if you if God anoints you to do
something if you want to maintain that
anointing you need that to keep the
strife out of your life to be excellent
to walk with integrity and you really
need to to walk in love and treat people
properly it’s a big part of your legacy
I mean it really is what I know sure
both of you want to leave behind you
mentioned the books leaving that
teaching um what else is important to
you that you’re building now that you
want to leave behind for generations to
come
well you know people always always
always ask me well what’s your vision
now you know and I think that I’m one of
the blessed people that can say I’m
actually I am actually doing what God
put in my heart I feel like that I’m the
vision that he gave me is being
fulfilled every single day and I really
just want to help more and more people I
really want people to always say I want
Jesus to be famous not that he’s not but
I want to do my part too yeah make him
more famous and it’s just so important
that we represent him right out in the
world and to teach people how to do that
consistency being a Christian is about
so much more than just going to church
somewhere on a Sunday morning and then
going home and perhaps acting like
everybody else out in the world we do
need to realize that we’re in the world
but not of it and that doesn’t mean that
we can’t enjoy the world and have fun
but there has to be some sort of a
separation between God’s people and and
people in the world we can’t just blend
in and and act like everybody else so I
love teaching people things about
spiritual maturity I love to teach them
that God loves them and about the grace
of God and the mercy of God and all
those things but I’ve always had a bent
in my teaching towards spiritual
maturity and growing up and it’s just
really important to me that I always
have a word from God for the place that
I’m at I don’t ever just go take a
message out of a drawer and go somewhere
and teach I still study really hard for
for what I’m doing and so I just want to
keep helping people
I just want to keep doing more and more
of of what I’m doing where our program
is aired now in about 85 different
languages and and our son just told us
the other day that within another year
it’s going to be pressing 100 and our
books are translated in over a hundred
languages and so I’m thrilled about what
I see but I’m even more thrilled about
what I don’t see which is more than what
I do see and like Dave said you know God
God gives us enough to keep us
encouraged but not so much that we get
full of ourselves and that’s that’s a
dangerous thing you know we have to
really keep in mind that God doesn’t
share his glory with anybody and he’ll
let us work with him and partner with
him but God does get all the glory
another thing I think is that we enjoy
the ministry in doing ministry we enjoy
our private life we enjoy each other and
we enjoy our children every facet of our
life we enjoy and I think that gives you
a balance of life you know to be able to
do that not just to yeah some people are
just stuck in maybe what they do and not
the other facets of their life and each
part of our life is important and if
they can enjoy each part of their life
and enjoy each other especially when
when people are married I mean if they
can enjoy each other
and allow each other to be themselves
you know not not try and make them
something that they don’t need to be or
you want them to be but along the beat
m7i both have a lot of joy in our
relationship you know he I’m not a
sports person he goes to a lot of
sporting events he plays a lot of golf
you know he lets me do the things that
that I enjoy you know sometimes I want
to go off somewhere for a week or two by
myself just to study and pray and just
you know sometimes just be by myself
because I am around a lot of people all
the time and he’s fine with that he’s
not the least bit insecure and there’s
nothing really that we want we have 11
grandchildren two great-grandchildren
four wonderful children two great
son-in-law to daughter-in-laws and each
other and we’re just pretty happy and
content they’re very blessed
you obviously worked hard god blessed
abundantly but you had a lot of people
behind you also building this ministry
let’s talk a little bit about the the
partners role that they have had in all
of this as well how important is that it
wouldn’t have happened otherwise well
you can’t you know Joyce Meyer
ministries my name gets to be on it but
I have my part I do the teaching the
writing the preaching some management
stuff not even as much of that now as I
used to but we’ve got wonderful leaders
in the ministry we’ve got our sons who
work very hard in the ministry both of
our son and laws work in the ministry
and they do a phenomenal job I mean
really our two sons David and Danny
pretty much run all the day-to-day stuff
now which is so different than the way
it was thirty even 20 years ago when we
were so involved but then we have our
ministry partners who financially
support the ministry and every one of
them is very important whether they give
a small amount every month or our large
amount every month and we need them
we’re all partners together and doing
everything that we do and and a partner
is someone who is part of and you know
also you’re a part all these people that
they can’t see right now that are
running all this equipment that’s
putting this together
they’re all apart you know all the
people who answer the phones are apart
we’ve got offices in about 15 different
countries and they’re all apart
everybody is a part of doing so really I
mean when you think about it how could
it possibly be anything other than God
how could you how could you keep
something like this up and running you
know the Bible says that that God
maintains the whole earth so when you
think about he keeps everything balanced
you know and we’re just one ministry but
God still has to hold us up and keep
everything going or it just it just
wouldn’t work and so I were very
consciously aware of that appreciate all
the partners we have whether it’s
somebody who works for us or somebody’s
support
or somebody prays for us or whatever
they do we’re all part of it
each speech person is an integral part
of the ministry uh for the ministry to
be as huge as it is the day and is doing
doing all the things that is doing with
a course without the partners it would
be a very small ministry it would not go
very far the partners actually project
the ministry throughout the world
throughout the United States and
throughout the world without them the
ministry could would be you know with us
just doing meetings and going places and
you know made doing conferences are
selling even some products we might do
15% of what we’re doing today but the
partners that actually project it to the
ends of the earth and the more partners
we have the more we can do and I pray
for that all the time because there are
so many people in the world that are
hurting oh my gosh our society is so
messed up and it’s not just it’s not
just in America it’s basically
everywhere and we really we need to all
bond together and to use the time that
we have to really try to help as many
people as we possibly can I mean people
are there’s so much deception and so
many false religions and and so many
people that think they’ve tried God and
he hasn’t helped them and really they’ve
just tried some form of religion that
really hasn’t brought life to them and
so the the word that we’re being able to
get out through radio through satellite
through television through printed
material is we’re just all very
privileged to be part of this and when I
think about the things that we could be
doing and this is what we get to do it’s
it’s pretty amazing and it is hard work
but it’s rewarding hard work and so I’m
anxious to see what all God does the
future I want to see more miracles and
signs and wonders and miraculous things
take place and I’m pleased to be part of
whatever God wants to do