TODD: This is my Diet of Worms.
You know, when Martin Luther was called before
the Roman Catholic Church at the Diet of Worms
in 15…
STEVE: Twenty-one.
TODD: Fifteen twenty one, of course you would
know that.
One of these dark suits is not like the others,
let me tell you that.
And, you know, I wonder, you know, it seemed
that he kind of copped out.
They asked him, “Will you recant?”
And he asked for a day before delivering the
infamous “Here I stand, I can do no other,”
in both Latin and German so the people could
hear it so he couldn’t be killed by the Roman
Catholic Church.
And I always wondered, you know, he was such
a manly man, what caused him to just seemingly
need to take a day.
Well, first of all, he thought it was going
to be a debate, so he wanted to carefully
get his answer constructed.
But second of all, if you’ve ever visited
the church in Worms, it’s huge and with all
the big religious people around, he was probably
scared and intimidated and that’s why this
is my Diet of Worms, I’m horrified to be here
with these guys, are you kidding me?
I’ve seen this on You Tube for years and now
I get to be here.
Very cool
I just want to let you know what’s going to
happen.
Today there’s going to be two sessions of
Q & A and I’m going to try mostly today to
be theological and then tomorrow when we spend
our time together, I’m going to try to be
exceedingly practical.
Now these two are going to bleed back and
forth, but I know you are like I am and you
know some people who are perhaps stuck in
this movement and you’d like to know how to
go back and to speak to them, what should
you so?
Where do we draw the lines?
Associations?
What if it’s in my church, how do I respond?
Predominantly we’re going to tackle that tomorrow
with a little bit of a today.
And you’ve also been submitting questions.
You should know that many, many questions
have come in, I have them right here on this
phone, and we are going to try to tackle in
big categories of many…as many of those
as we can, but you should also know that Grace
to You within the coming weeks is going to
answer each and every one of your questions
on the website.
So be looking for that, amazing indeed. (Applause)
By the way, if you’ve been at the conference
and you’ve been detached from your telephone
and you’re missing Fox News because you’re
an evangelical so you miss Fox News, it’s
part of the deal.
You get saved, you watch Fox, you get a gun
permit.
Okay, so you…it’s true though, isn’t it?
It is true, yeah.
I just saw that Fox News is reporting O.J.
Simpson wants to become a TV evangelist, no
kidding, following after apparently his new
favorite teacher, Fredrick Price.
So we can all look forward to that in about
28 years when he is finally sprung.
All right, you’re up to speed. (Laughter)
Everybody…sorry.
Okay.
This is the Strange Fire conference, next
year we’re hoping for strange water to talk
about baptismal regeneration, is that correct?
JOHN: We can do that…we can do that.
TODD: So Strange Fire conference…the Strange
Fire conference, I would like to…I would
like to tackle some words that we hear regularly
in the Charismatic community, and I’m going
to use the term Charismatic community in a
very broad umbrella sense, initially, because
these are words that we hear a lot and, gentlemen,
I’d like for you to respond and I would like
for us to interact with their ideas and their
theology by showing clips of these individuals.
And so for our department who is working on
that, this is going to be clip number 16 and
then we’re going to see clip number 20.
I want you, in case you haven’t, I want you
to see the things that have been spoken about
not for the purpose of laughing because some
of this is rather extreme and rather outrageous,
but we want to interact with them in their
own words and the first word that I want to
tackle is indeed the word “fire.”
It’s a word that gets used a lot in Charismatic
circles and clip number 16 and then clip number
20 will show you that.
Clip #16: FIRE! Pick him up.
TODD: In case you didn’t know, this is Rodney
Howard Brown, the self-appointed Holy Ghost
bartender.
This next clip is clip number 20, this is
Jesus Culture, a group about whom you must
know and we’ll be talking about, but this
is a concert that kids are going to in droves,
Jesus Culture and the word “Fire.”
Clip #20: (Singing) Fire fall down, fire fall
down on us, we pray…
As we seek you, Fire fall down, Fire fall
down on us, we pray…
TODD: About 16 thousand kids are in the auditorium
right now.
Clip #20: (Singing) Fire fall down, fire fall
down on us, we…
TODD: All right.
Now that song, by the way, goes on for 17
minutes.
The word “fire” calling down fire from heaven
is a persistent theme that we hear.
Theologically do we want fire to come from
heaven?
In the context, and Justin can point this
out, too, a lot of the conversation is about
feeling, a burning, being set on fire, thereby
calling the fire down from heaven.
Theologically how do we respond to this prayer
to call down fire from heaven.
JUSTIN: I can only assume that they’re referencing
Acts 2, taking an image that is tied to a
larger context.
The fire there is defined as, even we were
talking about this morning, clear and discernible
ways that essentially, ultimately it was representative
of the Spirit’s coming and the Spirit’s expression
was in the gift of tongues for a specific
purpose, to confirm the Apostles, to confirm
what He was doing, as R.C. said yesterday,
and now bringing out a people for himself,
confirming the Jews were, in fact, going to
be a part of the church.
So it has a context.
But instead it’s removed from that context
and made to mean something just strictly experiential.
JOHN: Yeah, and again that’s a non-repeatable
event, Pentecost, as we heard from R.C.
Pentecost and then the subsequent exact same
reality occurs I those different people groups
to somehow turn Pentecost into this kind of
mockery, as if you could literally call down
fire from heaven is not only unbiblical, it’s
just folly.
But it’s more than that, it’s manipulation.
It’s all about mind control.
Rodney Howard Brown is a mind manipulator.
From a human viewpoint, even more frightening
is this is demonic from a supernatural viewpoint.
Fire came down from heaven, of course, in
Leviticus 10 and consumed the worshipers…consumed
the ones who offered the sacrifice.
That’s the whole point of this conference.
John talked about fire baptism, John the Baptist,
and that was judgment.
I really don’t…these people are so a-biblical,
they’re so acquainted with words, Bible words
without Bible sentences, Bible words without
Bible context, Bible words without Bible doctrine.
They throw the words around and they become
means by which they manipulate people’s minds.
Fire is obviously an incendiary word.
It has all kinds of implications of heat and
power and energy and…I mean, that’s a perfect
word for them to use to manipulate people.
The next time fire comes from heaven, it’s
going to engulf the world in judgment.
God will not drown the world in water again,
but He will end the world in fire.
The elements will end with a fervent heat.
It’s going to be an atomic implosion, the
uncreation when the elements melt with fervent
heat, that is fire from heaven.
And I don’t think anybody in his right mind
would be calling down fire from heaven, because
that’s…that’s…going forward, that is a
judgment metaphor after Pentecost.
You will be baptized by the Holy Spirit and
with fire.
That’s another baptism, and that’s a judgment.
TODD: The second word that we hear a lot,
this is going to be clip number 17, clip number
17, the word “anointing” is used a lot and
I would like for us to see how the anointing
presumable is applied in a worship service
where they are doing the (sorry y’all) the
Holy Ghost Hokey Pokey and applying the anointing.
This is clip number 17, the word anointing.
Clip #17: (Music & Singing) You put your left
foot out, you put your left foot in, you put
your left foot out…put your left foot in,
put your left foot out, put it in, and then
you shake it and you shake it all about.
You put your whole self in, you put your whole
self out, put your whole self in, put your
whole self out, put your whole self in, put
your whole self out.
Now jump in, jump in, and shake it all about.
Come on! Release your body, release your body…
(?) (Music…)
TODD: Okay, and this goes on for a long time.
He’s anointing people.
We hear a lot about different anointings.
Could you please define for us biblically
what is the correct understanding to be anointed
and can we be today and if so…how?
JOHN: Did you want to say something, Justin?
JUSTIN: Sure.
Well Scripture teaches that if you are a Christian,
you’re anointed.
If you’ve been regenerated by God’s Holy Spirit,
you are anointed.
It is not a feeling, it’s not a buzz, it’s
not an experience, it’s a reality.
First John 2:20, “But you have an anointing
from the Holy One and you all know…” this
is not for a select few, it’s not that some
Christians have a super special anointing
that the rest of the common Christians don’t
have.
That is…that is a division of Christians
into classes, the haves and the have-nots,
you know to say, “Oh well, So-and-so is anointed,
he has a great anointing.”
If you’re in Christ, you are anointed.
There’s no division of classes within Christianity.
We are one in Christ, the ground is level
at the foot of the cross.
So this is a false understanding of a biblical
reality.
It’s used to manipulate people and it’s used
to make light their emotions and their behavior
and it’s also used to elevate the whatever
false teacher you’re looking at, elevate him
to a status that is above everyone else.
He has a different source of authority.
He has a unique access to God and he gets
divine revelation knowledge from the Holy
Spirit, from Christ, this pipeline from heaven
to various false teachers, and that is…that
is their way of insulating themselves against
biblical criticism. “Well if you can’t find
this in the Bible, don’t worry about it because
I have the anointing.
God has spoken to me directly.
And so if you can’t find it in Scripture,
don’t sweat it, I’ve got the anointing, I’ve
got this inside avenue to God.”
TODD: Regularly we’ll hear we can’t critique
them because we can’t touch God’s anointed.
JOHN: Yeah, touch not the Lord’s anointed.
Yeah, I think what you have to understand
and what Justin’s saying is the anointing
is essentially the promise of illumination
from the Holy Spirit to understand the Word.
And we all have that.
We possess not only the Word but we possess
the teacher and the author of the Word.
That is the anointing.
That’s why we don’t need to turn to human
teachers.
That’s the rest of that verse, we don’t need
to be taught from the vantage point of human
wisdom.
The anointing we have is the illuminating
work of the Holy Spirit which leads us to
a true understanding of Scripture.
Every believer has that.
That comes with the resident Holy Spirit.
We would not be able to live the Christian
life if we couldn’t understand the Bible.
And we know the natural man understands not
the things of God, they’re foolishness to
him.
But we have the mind of Christ.
Why do we have the mind of Christ, 1 Corinthians
2:16?
Because the Spirit teaches us the deep things
of God.
That’s the anointing.
But you’re exactly right.
They throw that word around in kind of an
Old Testament sense like a prophet or a priest
or a king was anointed and some official ceremony.
As if they’ve been pulled up above the hoi
polloi and they’re so elevated that they’re
beyond criticism.
They have the anointing from God.
I think the other thing to say about that
is that is pagan…that kind of activity has
nothing to do with Christianity.
That is a blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.
It is a mockery of the Word of God.
It is a travesty to do that in the name of
Christ.
I don’t know how those people survive the
fire that should come down from heaven.
I don’t know…(applause)…I don’t know how
God can exercise as much patience as He does.
And if you ever question the patience and
forbearance of God, look at how long that
stuff goes on.
Why is God patient?
Why is He forbearing?
Because, listen carefully, because He has
people in that movement yet to be redeemed.
And He will rescue His people from that movement.
TODD: Let me…let me…oh boy, this is going
to hurt.
I’m going to argue with you.
Let me play advocate, okay?
JOHN: Sure.
TODD: Here…here’s your problem, you like
organs and cellos, this is our way of expressing
ourselves in worship, why would you judge
something that is so clearly filled with the
Spirit?
JOHN: Because it’s just mindless emotional
hysteria.
It’s just hysterics.
They have no thoughts.
It’s mind-numbing hysteria.
It’s not about worship.
Let me explain worship in a simple way.
The deeper your understanding of the truth
of God, the deeper your understanding of God
Himself, the higher your worship goes.
Worship is directly correlated to understanding.
The richer your theology, the more full your
grasp of biblical truth, the more elevated
your worship becomes.
You don’t have to turn the music on for me
to worship.
Low understanding of God, superficial, shallow
understanding of God leads to shallow superficial
content less hysteria.
You can whip that up, you can create that
kind of frenzy, it has nothing to do with
worship, it isn’t worship, it’s not connected
to worship, it is sheer hysteria in a mindless
expression.
You’ve been singing hymns this week.
Why?
Because there’s rich theology in hymns.
We don’t have to go hysterical, we want your
mind fully engaged.
Hymns, I like hymns, I don’t need to hear
fire, fire, fire a thousand times.
I don’t need 7-11 choruses, seven words eleven
times over.
I need to advance the doctrine.
I need to advance the richness.
I need to deepen the truth and broaden the
truth and hymns have verses, not just five
words repeated, and repeated, and repeated,
and repeated, and repeated but never really
with the nuances (applause) of theology.
So, yeah…that’s not worship, that’s not
even Christian.
That’s no different than a rock concert.
There’s a lot of ways to manipulate people’s
minds, and they have figured out how do that.
TODD: So you’re saying the theological depth
of hokey-pokey isn’t…
JOHN: Yeah, it leads to that.
TODD: Okay, the next word I’d like to talk
about is the word “glory,” the word “glory”
is used a lot.
Folks, this is going to be clip number 18,
and then clip number 21.
My apologies, but this is about…this is
John Crowder, to my surprise he has grown
in popularity.
He’s not one of the big boys, but he is…he
continues to find accesses, you will see,
into churches.
This is clip number 18, John Crowder experiencing
the drunken glory.
CROWDER: Oh, yoi, yoi, yoi.
I think I’m going to wreck because, they say
when you put two, two users together, see
when Whinny gets up here, I think you expect
me to get up and say coherent words later,
afterwards.
Oh Jesus, O dear Jesus, O Lord…(Odd noises)…yes,
Lord.
I’ve learned a quick prayer, teach it to all
you really quickly, okey-dokey, Lord.
Oooooookey-doooookey, I love your heavy, drunken
glory.
Lord, I love it, Lord, thank You, Father,
for more of the heavy, weighty drunken glory
in this house today.
TODD: That’s the drunken glory.
This is clip number 21, this is the church
we are going to be talking about in more detail.
It’s in Redding, California, I know we have
some pastors here from Redding, California.
This is a movement that is very…it’s extraordinarily
large.
It’s Bethel Church and this is, get ready
everybody, you’re going to be in the presence
of God, clip number 21 as the glory cloud
comes down from heaven, or the ventilation
system.
Clip: …Noisy yelling…
TODD: That’s it, you’ve just experienced the
glory of God.
Gentlemen…
TOM: I mean, it’s hard to even respond to
that, isn’t it?
It’s mind-numbing, it’s blasphemous.
You know, I was thinking as you were showing
the clip of Moses, we were talking about him
this morning as prophet.
He wanted to see the glory of God and he wanted
to have the glory of God declared to him.
The glory of God, I mean, the Hebrew word
kavod , it’s what makes God weighty.
It’s what makes Him take our thoughts and
drive us to the ground and, you know, worship.
There’s nothing weighty about any of this,
it’s instead a blasphemy of Him.
And what does God do with Moses?
He shows him a visible display of His glory.
He can’t see the whole thing, He has to hide
him.
But the real display of the glory of God was
when He proclaimed His name before him.
It was propositional glory.
It was the truth about His character.
That’s what weighty about God and this is
just.
JOHN: Tom, I add a thought.
If that was the glory of God, everybody in
the building would be dead…everybody.
TOM: That’s right.
JOHN: Even Moses couldn’t look on the glory
of God.
The only way that the glory of God could be
revealed in the world and people wouldn’t
die was when it was revealed in Jesus Christ
and it was veiled in human flesh.
And when Jesus went up on the Mount of Transfiguration,
God protected the disciples that were there
and they only went into a coma and not death
when they saw the glory of Christ.
The veiled glory is manifest in Christ.
We see the glory of God, and I love 2 Corinthians,
we see the glory of God shining in the face
of Jesus Christ.
But it’s veiled in Christ as it was veiled
to Moses.
That…that…that kind of folly, that’s…it
doesn’t get more serious than that.
When you start tampering with the glory of
God and the guy before that, whoever he is,
if that…that kind of behavior, if he hasn’t
figured out how to do that and make that up,
that’s demonic.
I mean, that’s either him really adept at
pulling that off, or he’s under some power
and it’s not the Holy Spirit.
TODD: Before we go any further, I just think
for the sake of fairness, Steve, if you could
just stay out of this for one of these questions.
Let the other guys have a go.
JOHN: Jump in…
STEVE: I’m saving it all for tonight, okay?
Yeah, no, I’ll hop in.
The word “glory” is used basically in two
different ways.
There is the intrinsic glory of God and there
is ascribed glory.
The intrinsic glory of God is the sum and
the substance of all the divine perfections.
It is all of God’s attributes, it is the fullness
of His eternal being.
And there is nothing that we can do to add
to the intrinsic glory of God nor take away
from the intrinsic glory of God.
He is the God who was and who is and who shall
be forever.
He is immutably the same from age to age.
And it is the sum of His holiness, His transcendence,
His independence is antonymous–autonomy is
sovereignty, His righteousness is truth, His
love is grace, His mercy, His omniscience,
His omnipresence…all of the attributes of
God comprise His intrinsic glory.
There is ascribed glory which is the glory
we give to God which is to render to Him the
praise and the worship that belongs to Him
alone.
And the more we understand of His intrinsic
glory, the more we will ascribe to Him glory.
And so, a low view of God leads to low worship.
And a high view of God leads to high worship
and high and holy living.
So what we see here are people who have no
knowledge of God, or who have so little of
God they don’t know enough to get out of…I
mean, that was like a bad fraternity party,
it’s hard to even know how to respond to that.
They don’t even know what the word “glory”
means, they have no concept, they have no
truth regarding the glory of God.
Yeah, and that first guy, I mean, he does
have a strange spirit, a different spirit
about him, small “s”.
TODD: Gentlemen, if I could without being
annoying, which maybe we’ve already crossed
that line, but I want to bring this way, way
down for a moment, okay?
Because I think most of us see things like
that and we just, because of theological training,
we just look and go…”Well, that’s just dopey,
that’s just dumb.”
But when you engage in a conversation with
somebody who is in to that movement, I need
more than “Well that’s…” and it is, and
that’s how I want to respond.
Equip me to in a pithy way respond to that
to help them understand why it’s dumb.
STEVE: Well certainly if they’re in that,
we may need to be sharing, probably need to
share the gospel with them and bring them
to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
I don’t see how a born-again, converted, regenerated
person would stay in that environment for
two seconds, especially given the anointing
that we just talked about.
I’d be scared to even be in the building with
that going on.
That somehow I’m going to end up being trafficking
in some kind of dark, devilish spirits.
TODD: Tell me why…so I’m in this, I’m in
this, I like jumping around, I don’t…why?
Why is this bad, David danced before the Lord,
why is this bad?
STEVE: It’s mindless, it’s a-theological.
There is no Christ.
I mean, John this morning just spoke of that
first principle from 1 John 4:2 and 3, it’s
a magnification of the true Christ.
I mean, that’s just responding to crowd control,
as John said, mind-numbing music.
You’re just whipping yourselves up.
I think you have to be a little emotionally
unstable to even want to be in that and to
be pulled along into the vacuum of that.
JOHN: You know, the thing with David…David
in response to the truth about God expressed
himself physically, that’s all that’s saying.
It’s simply that with every faculty, every
part of his body, every means he had humanly,
he expressed his joy and his gratitude to
God.
That’s very different than that.
And this speaks to an issue, Todd, that I
think Steve nailed.
This is why I believe that we are not dividing
the body of Christ in this conference.
We are trying to identify the body of Christ
and show that these people aren’t part of
it. (Applause) I think the big issue here,
you know, people have been hitting the twitter
thing all day and it was kind of interesting,
they told me today that it was the number
one hash-tag twitter thing in the world, Strange
Fire conference.
So that’s pretty interesting.
In fact, I was told that we were several points
ahead of Kim Kardasian. (Laughter)
TODD: Now we’re relevant.
Sweet.
JOHN: But
one of the criticisms coming is, “This is
divisive, these are our brothers, these are
our sisters in Christ, they’re not.
Should we be happy about that?
No, we ought to be heart-broken about that.
If we want to talk about fire, then we need
to be talk about snatching brans from the
burning.
These people need to be rescued, and one of
the reasons we did this…there’s two things
in my mind that’s driven toward this conference.
One was the terrible dishonor of the Holy
Spirit so that the reproaches that fall on
Him are falling on me.
Zeal for Your house has eaten me up, is what
Jesus said when He cleansed the Temple.
And secondly, the reality that these people
are lost in this system and throwing the word
“Jesus” all over the place.
They don’t know the gospel.
They don’t understand the gospel.
So, you know, I got to thinking about that
today and I decided that on Sunday morning
here, I’m going to give a message on the true
gospel and who’s really saved, because at
the end of the day this becomes the issue.
And I will tell you this, that people can’t
be saved out of that movement until they hear
the gospel.
They can’t call on the one they don’t know.
(Applause) They can’t know Him unless they
hear.
TODD: Because this is such an important issue,
I am certain with the people sitting here,
they might say, “Dr.
MacArthur, I know some people, and yeah, it’s
whacking, it’s goofy.
But I think they love the Lord and they’re
so nice and they would tell you that they’re
actually a Christian.”
JUSTIN: I want to take just a minute to tag
along with what John was just saying.
Is it…this is very, very serious and the
people who are in this movement, the vast
majority of them are not saved.
And one of the things that so confuses and
so blurs the line is that they use some of
the same terminology but the definitions behind
that terminology are very, very different.
It’s not enough just to use the same lingo,
how you teach it, how you flesh that out.
And one of the things that honestly, and I’m
going to…I’m out to blackball myself here.
One of the things that makes…that makes
it so hard to warn people about false teachers
is when the good guys start associating with
the bad guys. (Applause) And they give these
people…now what we’ve seen in these clips
is extreme, to be sure, but the same movement,
this word of faith, Charismatic Movement,
certainly the more as you drift toward the
word of faith, one of the things that so confuses
people, I cannot tell you how many times I’ve
heard from people and they ask me, “Well what
about So-and-So, I saw him with Paul Crouch,
I saw him with Marcus Lamb, you know, on Daystar
and on TBN, it makes it very hard for us to
warn people about the wolves when the leaders
of the sheep are associating with the wolves.
And they give them…let me…Paul Crouch
loves to have the good guys on his set, loves
it because the good guys give him a level
of credibility that he does not have on his
own.
And Paul Crouch, TBN, Daystar, Marcus Lamb,
these guys are the tips of the spears that
are exporting this theological poison to the
rest of the world.
And that is an offense to the gospel.
And these guys should know better.
It is a shame that prominent people, some
of the supposed good guys are breaking metaphorical
bread with the bad guys.
It’s hard enough (Applause)
TODD: If I could for a moment, because I have
the gift of encouragement, Justin.
Don’t worry, you’ve been blackballed for years,
bro.
Nothing’s changed.
The fourth word…okay…
JUSTIN: Yeah, I suppose I have…
TODD: The fourth word that I’d like to discuss
is the word “dominion,” and this is going
to get a little bit theological because it’s
also eschatological, it also has ends times
implications.
In brief, they believe that there are seven
mountains in culture…politics, society,
family, the arts…and if the new…from the
new apostolic Reformation, what do they call
the kids?
The new…the new warriors of Joel’s army,
the Latter Day…Yeah, they raise up these
kids in the new apostolic reformation to conquer
each one of the mountains of the seven mountains,
and then as soon as we conquer the seven mountains,
Jesus is going to come back.
It’s a dominionist’s theology, this is from
one of the few books that actually is critical
of anything in the New Apostolic Reformation
from Latter Reign theology which is also could
be underneath the new Apostolic Reformation.
If you don’t know, there’s basically three
rivers.
One is from Toronto where the Toronto blessing
happened, in Kansas it’s IHOP, not the pancake
story, International House of Prayer, and
then the third river which flows together
into an ocean of sewage is out of Bethel,
the Bethel Church in Redding California with
Bill Johnson.
Those are the three streams that form the
New Apostolic Reformation.
Gentlemen, the church must be restored and
equipped to rule.
It must come to perfection.
Out of the purified church will come a spiritual
elite core, a corporate Christ who possesses
the Spirit without measure.
They will purge the earth of all wickedness
and rebellion.
They will judge the apostate church.
They will redeem all creation.
First of all, very attractive to young people
who want something to do.
You can comment on that, if you’d like, but
I would like you to focus on “dominion.”
How do we biblically take dominion?
What are the eschatological implications of
this?
And where are they going wrong?
STEVE: That’s post-millennialism that we’re
going to usher in the Kingdom by making the
world a better place and once we have restored
the earth under the dominion of the gospel,
then Christ will return at the end.
And that is certainly contrary to what we
read in the Word of God.
We see that it will be desperate times at
that period before Christ returns.
Not better and better…
JOHN: Worse and worse.
STEVE: It will be worse and worse.
And so they really have it totally backwards.
We cannot usher in the Kingdom until the King
comes back, the Lord Jesus Christ Himself.
And if you read the New Testament and try
to see that we are to restore dominion and
arts and media and all of that, I mean, that
was laughable in the first century, like okay,
they’re going to restore these different hills
in the Roman Empire.
I mean, they’re just trying to survive for
their life and escape being martyred to death.
It’s just a false eschatology.
JOHN: I don’t think it starts with a false
eschatology, I think it starts with a madness,
an egotistical madness that you actually think
you have the kind of power that could pull
that off.
And if you tell yourself that long enough,
and you get enough people to buy into it,
it gets a life of its own.
And I think it is just a way to dupe people.
We all know how young people are interested
in social justice, and how Christianity…even
evangelical Christianity non-Charismatic has
turned away from the gospel.
Why has it turned away from the gospel?
If you go to a place that’s been through a
difficult time, you go to New Orleans after
a hurricane, or whatever, and you start reaching
out to people, if you go and sit them down
and say, “Let me tell you why you need to
come to Jesus Christ because you’re a sinner,”
and you go through the gospel.
What kind of reception are you going to get?
You’ll probably going to run out of the house,
it’s going to be very difficult, people aren’t
going to buy in.
But show up with food, show up with clothes,
they will love you.
They will embrace you and say you’re doing
this in the name of Jesus.
That kind of stuff is easy.
What’s hard is the gospel presentation.
Well I think they’ve captured some of this
desire to change the world which is always
appealing to young people and that’s who you
see in these things, young people.
And with a kind of crazy megalomania and kind
of a vast overestimation of the power that
they have, they…they define their eschatology.
I don’t think it comes from studying the Bible
and coming up with a post-millennial view.
I think it comes from egotism gone mad and
it may be aided and abetted by Satan himself.
If you read about the NAR, you know, they
have…when Rick Perry was running for President
and he ended up at a bunch of NAR New Apostolic
Reformation…and by the way, it is basically
built on the fact that there are Apostles
today.
Peter Wagner’s the leading Apostle.
And you can be an Apostle, I think it was
for 600 bucks you can be an Apostle.
And you send your money to Peter and he sent
you a certificate saying you were an Apostle.
So they had divided the state of Texas, if
you remember, into…they’ve taken every county
in Texas and they had started to take dominion
over every county in Texas.
And the big prayer meeting that Rick Perry
attended was a prayer meeting of all these
dominionists trying to take over Texas.
And they came up with crazy things like little
demons and all kinds of stuff.
There’s a sense in which this is just egotism
gone mad and there’s also a sense in which…it
may be literally that the kingdom of darkness
behind it all.
But Steve is exactly right in saying what
the Bible says as the world gets worse, and
worse, and worse, and worse, and worse and
Jesus comes and judges the entire world in
a judgment that parallels the Flood in Genesis
only it’s by fire and not by water.
TOM: You know, the passage that immediately
jumped in my mind while you were saying that
is out of Daniel.
We hear about the kingdoms that are going
to exist and they’re going to be all human
kingdoms.
They’re described later in Daniel, of course,
of these vicious animals.
That’s what the world is going to be.
And then one approaches the Ancient of Days,
the Son of Man and to Him is given dominion.
JOHN: Is given the Kingdom.
Yeah.
TODD: I think that you’ve answered this most
certainly in part, and perhaps in whole.
But why else do you suppose so many young
people are drawn to that, to being a forerunner
generation.
JOHN: I don’t think it has anything to do
with what they’re saying for most of them.
It’s the music.
It’s all the stuff.
They’re liberated.
It’s like getting drunk.
It’s like going out and just getting bombed
so you don’t have to think about the issues
of life.
Shut down the music, totally shut down the
music.
Turn on all the lights and they all need to
be white lights just like normal light bulbs,
just turn on the lights, shut down all the
music and have some guy get up there and try
to sell that.
Yeah, it’s not going to work.
You’ve got to have some way to manipulate
their minds and turn them into zombies.
JUSTIN: And that’s the very reason all of
the healing crusades that I’ve ever been to,
and I’ve been to more than I can count, almost,
but they’ve always got the music going, it’s
this extended, repetitive music that lulls
people in to what’s essentially like the first
stage of hypnosis.
You’ve altered…you’ve disengaged your mind,
you’ve disengaged rational thought, and this
emotionally driven music in people become
more susceptible and there are a lot of psychosomatic
healings.
That happens all the time at Benny Hinn crusades.
But what you don’t see are organic healings
that people are actually bonafide, medically
documented healed.
That does not happen.
The people are very susceptible to this emotionally
driven music and it goes on and on, like you
said, for 17 minutes goes on and on.
JOHN: Can I add a note to that.
You’re not going to find that kind of music
in a Reformed church.
You won’t find it.
Why?
Because that’s not who they are.
They’re going back to the Puritans.
They’re going back through Martyn Lloyd-Jones,
they’re going back through Spurgeon, they’re
going back to Calvin and Luther, and Athanasius
and Augustine and the Apostles and they’re…they’re…they’re
world is sound theology, Bible exposition,
serious worship, love of God, obedience, discipline,
order…that’s their world.
This is a completely different stream.
This is the world invading the so-called church
and carrying it away with things that have
nothing to do with the Kingdom of God, and
nothing to do with the history of the church
and nothing to do with sound doctrine.
JUSTIN: You know, you look at the New Testament
and you see two groups of people, you know,
those who are in Christ and those who aren’t.
And always what you find is that those who
aren’t in Christ are driven by their feelings,
their emotions, they’re driven by their body’s
appetites.
And those in Christ are driven by their minds,
by their understanding of the truth.
Over and over again you hear, “This you know,”
or “You need to know this.”
It’s the mind for us in Christ and there’s
nothing…there’s nothing about the mind.
JOHN: But the attraction is the same thing
in a bar.
It’s the same kind of thing.
It’s sensual, sensual experience that disconnects
you from the realities of life.
TODD: If I could, and Dr.
MacArthur, I’m going to let you determine
when this is going to stop cause I realize
this is going to be very painful but I’ve
chose, if you would be so kind in the booth,
to prepare clip number 19…clip number 19,
this is Jesus Culture…Jesus Culture is the
worship band out of Bethel Church in Redding,
California.
They do concerts all over the world.
They sell up sixteen thousand seaters like
that, most likely kids in your church have
Jesus Culture music on their iPads…almost
certain that they’re listening to it in their
ear buds.
Now I brought three minutes, three minutes
of a fifteen-minute song and let’s endure
this for as long as we can because it’s one
thing to say it’s hypnotic and repetitious,
I think it’s another thing to see it.
So we will watch this until either we all
pass out, or Dr.
MacArthur says, “Enough, I can’t take it anymore.”
All right?
This is clip number 19, Jesus Culture asking
to be filled up with something, clip number
19.
JESUS CULTURE: (Music) Singing: “Fill me up,
God, fill me up, fill me up, God, fill me
up, God, fill me up, God, fill me up, fill
me up, God, fill me up, God, fill me up, God,
fill me up, fill me up, God, fill me up, God,
fill me up, God, fill me up, to overflowing,
God.
TODD: Dr.
MacArthur… (yelling) Dr.
MacArthur…
JESUS CULTURE: Fill me up, fill me up…
TODD: Okay, alright, that’s enough.
Okay, I couldn’t take it.
That was about a minute and that was 12 fill
me ups.
This is wildly popular.
Now this is the tricky part.
Some of the Jesus Culture music is passable.
I’m a parent, my child loves it.
Am I concerned?
JOHN: Absolutely you’re concerned.
I mean, it’s obviously, you know, it’s the
old clock that doesn’t run is right twice
a day.
If they don’t ever do anything that is acceptable,
then you’re not going to buy in to what isn’t.
I mean, it’s just the greased slide.
That has nothing to do with Christianity,
nothing to do with God.
In fact, I’d be afraid to put my mind in neutral
and start yelling out loud with that kind
of sensual music, “Fill me up, fill me up,
fill me up,” among a group of non-believers
who would go from being kind of normal non-believers
living in the kingdom of darkness, to be demon
possessed.
I think you’re inviting a spirit for sure,
but it isn’t the Spirit of God.
And it has nothing to do with Christianity.
Again this is paganism.
This is the Kundalini Cult.
You can look on the You Tube and see that
kind of stuff.
This is paganism.
This is what Hindus do, the mindlessness of
this.
And I think if you accept any of it, if you
say, “Well, there’s some good in it,” you
literally have left your young people open
to demon powers.
I would run from this so fast.
TODD: This maybe sound silly to you but I
see this stuff and I experience this stuff.
They’ve got a few songs, they maybe have 50
songs and there’s a couple of them, there’s
nothing bad in them, and people will just
say, “Well that one’s okay, it doesn’t hurt
anything.”
Does it hurt anything to bring their music
in any way, shape, or form into my church,
into my home, into my kid’s ear buds?”
JUSTIN: The music is just an avenue to get
them into their teaching.
The music is popular and what they’re wanting
to do is they’re wanting to draw people in,
“Oh, we’ve got good music.
Jesus Culture, Hillsong, we’ve got good music,”
they use that as an avenue to get people into
their teaching.
The Mormons do the same thing.
Mormonism…Mormons don’t approach you with
a full-bore list of all their heresies that
they believe.
They look very normal.
They look Christian.
They look very nice and they suck people in.
It’s the same thing with this, it’s to draw
people in to their belief system.
And it’s sad that today theology and doctrine
have almost become bad words.
What we just saw there, that is a mark supposedly
of spirituality.
You know, it’s a high mark, you’re spiritual
if you can…but it’s totally opposite.
JOHN: I would go so far as to say evangelical,
non-Charismatic churches are using music that
is unacceptable to draw people in. (Applause)
JUSTIN: Right, absolutely.
JOHN: They’re using the music of the world
to suck people in as if somehow people would
get saved because the music of the world is
attracting them.
It’s a big jump from being attracted by the
music of the world and being regenerated by
the Holy Spirit.
And the two have no connection.
So I think this is so close to what’s in a
normal evangelical environment, this is so
close to what people see in non-Charismatic
quote/unquote evangelical churches that it’s
a very small step to getting sucked in because
the style is the same.
But the theology inherent in it, as Justin
says, is unbiblical.
TODD: Alright, I want to…
STEVE: You know, Todd, one other thing too,
just the theology of that little chorus is
wrong.
We’re not filled up with the Holy Spirit as
though we get more of the Holy Spirit.
The whole issue is the Holy Spirit gets more
of us.
And so it’s totally reversed.
In Ephesians 5:18 we are to be filled by the
Holy Spirit, not filled up with more of the
Holy Spirit.
And it is a total wrong, you know, pneumatology
of understanding of how the Holy Spirit works
in sanctification.
And as if that is what you need to do in order
to be filled by the Spirit, is just keep repeating
that over and over.
No, in reality you need to die to self, you
need to resist temptation, you need to mortify
the flesh, you need to have the Word of Christ
richly dwell within you…those type of things,
buffet your body and make it your slave.
Those type of things really are the precursors
to being filled by the…confessing sin, repenting,
turning away from the world, loving Christ,
those are the things that accompany being
filled by the Spirit.
TODD: That’s a great point, that’s excellent.
Yeah. (Applause)
TODD: Let me take you to Bethel Church in
Redding, California, this is clip 22 for the
booth, clip 22.
We’re going to return to the word “fire,”
but this is Bethel, and I want this to lead
us into more conversations about the kids
who are typically attracted to this.
This is a fire tunnel at Bethel Church where
you are, I think you are getting the fire
anointing, feeling the glory, all of it kind
of coming together in a fire tunnel.
This is clip 22 at Bethel Church.
Clip #22: (Lot of noise and cackling)
TODD: Okay, I want to explore more of that
but in general.
We’ve got pastors sitting on the stage, pastorally
how grievous is this?
TOM: It’s shocking is what it is.
I mean, you look at that and you think, how
we live for the glory of God.
We live to teach the Word of God and to see
Him denigrated in such a way, to act like
that is inappropriate, my mind goes immediately
to the first two commandments.
The first being you’re not to have any God
but the one and only true God.
But secondly, the second Commandment isn’t
primarily about having idols as opposed to
the true God, it’s about having a wrong kind
of worship, a human-created worship of the
true and living God.
That’s what the second Commandment is about.
Ultimately out of that came the regulative
principle and the idea that we don’t get to
decide how we think God ought to be worshiped.
We don’t get to create that.
We are shaped by what the Scriptures themselves
teach.
You come to the New Testament, why do we do
what we do in corporate worship?
I remind my congregation this often.
When we come to worship God, we don’t come
to decide, “Okay, we’re going to do this because
we like it, or we think it’s…it’s popular,
it’s going on in other churches.”
We do these things because they’re prescribed
by the New Testament for corporate worship.
You don’t find that prescribed for corporate
worship in the New Testament.
Everything is Word driven.
We sing the Word, we pray the Word, we…we
read the Word, we preach the Word.
Everything is ultimately Word focused and
there’s nothing that’s Word-focused there.
It’s idolatrous in the sense of the second
Commandment.
It is probably also a violation of the first
commandment, but surely a violation of the
second, even if they perceive the true God
as is required.
TODD: Closely related to the regulative principle,
or the normative principle, how we go about
worship.
Here is one of the most often repeated responses
to what you’re saying. “Nowhere in the Bible
does it say that the Holy Spirit cannot do
that.
I know you may be find it to be strange, but
the Bible does not say that the Holy Spirit
cannot knock people over, cause them to be
drunk, cause them to bark like dogs, or run
around on fire.
Therefore, who are you to put the Holy Spirit
in a box?”
TOM: My response is, God put the worship of
Himself in a box in the second Commandment.
And we have to respect that box.
You don’t get to…you don’t get to live outside
that box because you want to, He set the standard,
He set the fences.
JOHN: There’s just two ways.
You either have a direct mandate as to how
to worship in the Bible, or you have a model
for it.
I mean, there can be elements of worship that
are commanded.
Paul says to Timothy, “Read the Scripture
till I come, read the Scripture.”
Okay, that’s part of what it means to worship.
You also have examples of what went on in
worship.
They’re regulated.
They’re regulated in 1 Corinthians, right?
You’re doing this, you’re doing this, stop
doing this, stop doing this, do this.
So you have illustrations of teaching the
Word of God.
And this is one of my favorite exemplary principles,
“Teach the Word of God till people are so
tired they fall out of the window and die,
raise them from the dead and bring them back
and keep teaching.”
So, you either have prescription for how to
worship, or you have examples of how to worship.
You can’t find in the Bible people barking,
falling over, or flopping.
The only people who were ever slain were unbelievers
who were knocked over by the power of God.
There’s no illustration of any believer ever
being knocked down, ever barking like a dog.
So the burden of proof isn’t on that.
I mean, that’s the cheesiest argument there
ever is.
Since the Bible doesn’t forbid that, you know,
why can’t we allow the Holy Spirit to do it?
But, it is consistent with their entire view
of Revelation because they will not prescribe
themselves to the fact that the end of the
New Testament was the end of divine revelation.
So if God is still speaking and still talking,
and most amazingly talking to me and giving
me impressions, and revelations, then, of
course, who’s to say we can’t bark and we
can’t squirrel around and wiggle and dive
and jump and…yeah, you know, revelation
is still going on and it’s now coming through
me.
So there’s no restrain on anything.
TODD: All right, cheesy as it is, that is
one of the battle cries. “Well, Dr.
MacArthur, the Bible nowhere says that there
should be an organ in the church and you should
sing hymns with four-part harmony.”
JOHN: Well, I think the Bible does tell us
explicitly in the Old Testament that we are
to use instruments in worship.
And that, in fact, just the panoply of instruments
is throughout the Psalms.
And I don’t think the New Testament cancels
that out at all.
And I think you can even show that from the
words in Ephesians as well.
But we do have that.
An organ is just another instrument.
It’s a wind instrument, if you will.
If you want to go back before there were electronic
organs, it was a wind instrument.
Other wind instruments were used in the Bible.
Pipes and horns were wind instruments.
This was a mechanical way to push wind through
horns.
That’s what an organ was.
And I think the reason that historically the
church found its way to organs and instruments
was because they were following a biblical
pattern and that biblical pattern was as you
see it in Psalm 150, to take every possible
means there was.
And everything that has breath should be used
to praise the Lord.
So, whatever it is.
And I even think guitars can be used to praise
the Lord.
I’m not against that.
Modern electronic instruments, but I think
they are only accompaniment.
How can I say that?
I think the primary praise that God wants
in His ears is not instrumental praise.
Instrumental praise aids the people of God
in their praise.
And I think when you go to many churches,
you sit in the dark and this massive electronic
explosion of sound overwhelms you.
But people in those churches don’t know what
congregational singing is.
They can’t hear themselves, let alone the
people around them.
TODD: This is the other stream that I talked
about.
And I’m going to show two clips pretty closely
here.
This is clip number 8, and then clip number
6.
Clip number 8 and then 6.
This is the International House of Prayer,
this is again Mike Bickle up in Kansas.
And I want you to see a young lady who visited
their ministry for training, for equipping,
we’ll then try to figure out what’s going
on here and what’s happening to this young
lady.
This is clip number 8 from IHOP.
GIRL: “Oh, oh the Lord is so good, when the
waking broke out we were made to come here.”
(Druggy)
MIKE: You were made to come here.
GIRL: (Acting as though drunk) Well, not on
a Wednesday, we all came because it was our
Sabbath, and we were all excited, so we came
to see what was going on.
And I’ve never seen anything like this before,
or even heard about it and I didn’t know that
the Lord could work like this.
MIKE: So you never did this kind of thing
before?
GIRL: No.
MIKE: Have you ever seen it before?
GIRL: (Druggy) Nooo.
MIKE: Never seen this kind of manifestation
of the Holy Spirit you’re now experiencing?
LADY: Yeah…
No.
MIKE: No, you never had.
GIRL: No. (Giggling) Oh yeah.
MIKE: Because you haven’t stopped shaking
since you’ve been on the platform.
Another Lady: Before the platform, she was
sitting over there shaking for the last two
hours.
GIRL: Yeah.
MIKE: So this is all like the last two months,
this is brand new to you what the Lord is
doing.
GIRL: Yeah, I grew up in a Methodist church,
and…
MIKE: So did I, by the way, I grew up in a
Methodist church.
Another Lady: So did I.
TODD: By the way, at the International House
of Prayer there’s a room where they are perpetually
praying 24 hours a day, again eschatology
involved now.
You’ve been mentioning, Dr.
MacArthur, the Kundalini part of Hinduism,
Andrew Strom happens to be a Charismatic and
he put together a very concerned expose on
what’s going on.
This is clip number 6 about Kundalini.
STROM: Now this all began with Rodney Howard
Brown imparting a new anointing into a bunch
of leaders and they spread it around the world.
In fact, it spread like wildfire.
How do we know that Rodney Howard Brown had
a pure anointing?
How do we know it wasn’t a Kundalini spirit
from the beginning, because it seems absolutely
identical to it?
Now one of the very clearest signs of a Kundalini
awakening has always been these kriyas.
You see this woman involved in the New Age
Movement–she’s walking along exhibiting these
kriyas happening, involuntary jerking motions,
and the staggering thing about it is that
we are seeing again and again and again these
exact same type of kriyas right through the
Toronto Movement.
This has always been one of the clearest signs
of Kundalini that we know of.
JOHN: And then he shows the Kundalini cult
in India doing the exact same thing.
There’s a whole range of those experiences.
Now my heart goes out to that young girl,
because if Satan would want to cloak himself
in a most convincing way, he’d put himself
in a pretty young lady like that, that first
girl, at IHOP.
By the way, their history isn’t admirable,
as you know, and we write about that in the
book.
Bob Jones, primary guy there.
Paul Cain who is associated with them, but
that’s the way Satan would want to dress himself
in another young woman walking down a road.
You know, it’s my sense that if Jesus were
around, He would do with those two women what
He did in the synagogue with a demon-possessed
person.
And He would cry out to that demon and call
that demon out.
I mean, I don’t know that, but that would
be my suspicion, that somebody who says this
has never happened to me before hasn’t learned
how to do that, like people kind of learn
how to speak in tongues.
That’s a very frightening thing.
You know, it’s so sad to think of a place
that says it represents Jesus Christ literally
inducing people into the kingdom of darkness
in these kinds of experiences.
Now I want to say one other thing.
I don’t believe that can happen to believers.
I don’t think that can happen to a Christian.
So what we’re talking about again is backing
up to this reality that this thing is full
of people who throw the name of Jesus around
and have jumped into the experience because
they have spiritual needs and anxieties and
they want to belong and they want to be a
part and it’s a powerfully overwhelming experience,
like they’ve never had in their lives, which
exposes them to Satan.
But to do it in the name of Christ, on the
one hand it’s tragic, on the other hand it’s
not surprising because Satan is disguised
as an angel of light.
I remember up in the other building when I
first came to Grace Community Church, talking
to a woman and demon started talking in different
voices to me as I was talking with her.
And this one demon, I didn’t know what I was
doing, I was just a kid.
I was only here for maybe a year.
And this demon kept…I said, “Who are you?”
And he said, “Jesus…Jesus…Jesus.”
Kept repeating that.
This particular girl flipped a desk, that’s
how much strength she had.
I knew I wasn’t talking to Jesus, I knew that.
So if Satan can make people think that this
is Jesus, that’s the ultimate deception.
TODD: As we close, if I might, I think what
we’ve seen, and we need to understand this
is not a fringe activity.
JOHN: No.
No.
TODD: This is millions of people in the U.S.
of A. millions more around the globe and while
I believe this is correct, these teachers
and these leaders, these false teachers and
wolves are to be rebuked and they are to be
called out.
The people that are following predominantly
are simply slaves to sin, they’re slaves to
Satan and they are lost just like we were.
And as we see this, we are grieved by it and
that I think as we focus tomorrow on trying
to figure out how to respond to this, might
I suggest it begins to making sure that we’re
evangelizing as many people as we can with
the gospel of Jesus Christ because these people
are just lost. (Applause) So with that thought
in mind that these are just, they’re slaves
to sin, they’re slaves to the devil.
Dr.
Lawson will you pray for us, please.
STEVE: Yeah.
Father, it’s hard to know how to even respond
to what we have just seen, other than, Lord,
we are so grateful that You have made Yourself
known to us through Your written Word by Your
Spirit, and You have caused us to be regenerated
by Your Spirit.
And we praise You and give You thanks that
You have rescued us out of the kingdom of
darkness and have transferred us into the
Kingdom of Light, and that You by Your divine
initiative have made Yourself known to us
and the truth has set us free.
Father, I pray that You will use us to rescue
people that have been made in Your image,
who have been marred and corrupted by sin,
who have become slaves of Satan, bound in
chains of darkness.
Lord, I pray that You would use us and would
use others in the preaching of the gospel
which is Your power unto salvation, that You
would sovereignly overcome their resistance
and that You would bring them to a saving
knowledge of Christ.
Lord, I pray that You would give much wisdom
to pastors, to elders, to spiritual leaders
to know how to give counsel to people in their
flocks, to know how in the preaching of the
Word of God to even make right and proper,
to show implications from the text of how
to unmask all of these deceptions and these
lies and these forgeries.
Lord, again, it just seems that You’re giving
us over as in Romans 1 and gone beyond even
giving us over to homosexuality but now giving
us over to a reprobate mind whereby we cannot
even reason and think our way back to You.
What we see here is just insanity.
It is lunacy.
It is irrational.
It is illogical.
It is mind-numbing.
And so, God, we pray that You would have mercy
upon so many people like this.
We pray that the preaching of the Word of
God would go forth with renewed power.
We pray that Your people would be yet further
armed with the full armor of God and advance
into this world and to be able to be used
by You to reach people for Christ.
Lord, give us discernment.
Give us penetrating insight.
Let us not be caught up in really the emotional
pull and the crowd appeal and pull.
Give us eyes to see.
Give us ears to hear.
And, Lord, I pray that again You would help
us to identify the church, help us to identify
true believers and may we be fortified in
the truth and then be able to reach those
who are in dire and desperate need for the
saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.
Lord, we do take great comfort that greater
is He who is in You than he who is in the
world, we do take great comfort that the darkness
will not extinguish the light, but that the
light will extinguish the darkness.
So I pray that we would be armed and gird
our loins with truth and that we would shine
forth the light.
We would not be a lamp hidden under a bushel,
but that we would shine forth the light into
the darkness of this world and that it would
please You, God, to move in a saving redemptive
way in the lives of so many that are caught
up in this false movement.
So, God, we plead with You that You would
do this, that Your name might go forth, that
Your glory might be properly and rightly put
on display.
Father we pray this in the name of the head
of the church, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Amen.
God I trust God. God weapon is only Wisdom