Does Bethel Church or Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry teach grave soaking or grave sucking? Where does this even come from? Bill Johnson and Bethel Associate Pastor and Dean of BSSM Dann Farrelly discuss how Bethel Church does not teach or encourage grave soaking. Bill and Dann also talk about where the myths of grave soaking have come from and how they have navigated the topic of grave soaking with Bethel School of Supernatural Ministry students.
you know there’s so many things that
previous generations accomplished you
know the anointing on a spurgeon his his
ability uh wesley to preach to
whitfield that their anointings we need
again we have a role to value and
respect the person who said yes to god
the spirit of god that marked them to
bring such change
[Music]
hey bill hey we are back again and um
we’ve got some fun topics to discuss
we’re going to talk about grave sucking
today a um a term that i don’t think we
coined uh one of our critics or a
concerned citizen uh coined it but uh
it stuck and it was quite amusing when
we first heard it yeah yeah
yeah exactly
but to give a larger context for this
like i’ve been wanting to write about
this for a while and like and people are
like why don’t you just address this and
it’s you know that whole deal and we
have done a few things about this but
right for me there’s a an interesting
story of like our culture in it and our
history and how we don’t
how we address things and when we
address things and why we’ll address
things that are that are all in there um
in this topic so
the uh our backgrounds are different
like you were raised charismatic
and
long family history of unusual uh
supernatural experiences and the power
of god hitting you guys yep in various
ways i i was raised non-charismatic was
um a little bit you know kind of
interested
wanted everything that’s in scripture
but i remember i didn’t speak in tongues
until
years later until i was in my late 20s
and and i told the lord many times like
i’m ready ready set go
anytime ready now and uh but i you know
as i look back i was so
worried about doing it wrong and i
thought i had had this pristine holiness
or this it had to be this pristine
perfectly spiritual moment
and um and just kept me from risking
yeah
so a lot of what our
journey has been on is like learning to
risk
to enjoy the presence of the lord have
you found that risk as a part of that
absolutely absolutely you have to just
you know we we want to be right you
never want to be i love being right
you know we don’t want to be deceived i
mean those are always concerns but
but
we’re we’re recording it’s almost like
i’m required it’s almost like i have to
be willing to fail to succeed yeah and
and that’s a huge part of our culture is
that we don’t always get it right so
then we clean up the mouse but it’s it’s
like chris does this well he he presents
uh the two sides of a company apple
computers for example research and
development and manufacturing well your
values in those two worlds are
completely different manufacturing you
want zero defects
every product works perfectly it looks
just like the other yeah we don’t want
to recall we don’t have to you know but
on research and development if zero
defect is your primary value you won’t
invent anything you won’t create
anything
and so in character we want to we want
to carry that zero defect value we want
to say you know what there’s no excuse
for sin let’s hold each other
accountable let’s let’s live in purity
for christ
but when it comes to ministry when it
comes especially to areas that are in
the bible that we don’t know anyone
who’s who’s really living in fully we
experiment and that makes a lot of
people nervous but that is that is the
nature of it and sometimes we succeed
and when we do it’s usually big
and when we fail it’s usually big yeah
and so there’s a there’s a mess to clean
up but that’s we have almost like uh the
unspoken agreement in our in our family
in our leadership team
is our research and development means
we’re going to
we’re going to create room to to see if
we can learn together stay accountable
uh but let’s see if we can learn this
thing together and and touch into some
things that are in the word that are not
the normal part of church life yeah and
so that’s one of the ways that we
and it’s not just the leaders we want
our people to be have
great character in like in the
manufacturing but also to walk with the
lord
and to just experience what the lord has
for them
in a variety knowing that scripture i
think you talk about scripture doesn’t
limit all the experiences we have but it
it sets a trajectory for the sorts of
experiences yeah exactly there are lists
in the bible the list don’t contain god
they reveal god
they don’t restrict what he can do they
reveal the nature of what he does
yeah it’s it’s a huge part of my own
family history so that’s that’s
important for me absolutely so from the
top i just say hey listen i’ve been here
since 1991 been under your leadership
since 94 or so 95. something like that
yeah and uh we never taught uh this
experience that i see described on the
web that’s grave sucking never taught it
never done it i teach regularly in the
school of ministry and then the dean of
school ministry this is not something we
teach or preach and so it’s it’s a it is
a bit alarming to sit in reading and see
the world think you think something
and you know you don’t
i i don’t know if that’s happened to any
of our listeners but it is
odd
like how could you believe
that about us without
checking in with us or
knowing and then
uh
and then you’ve taught us early on i
think we’re changing we’ve had changes
but you you generally wouldn’t respond
to critics
and come into a stance of opposition and
we all tried to model that early on i
think we still are trying to do that but
but we would just feel like oh no no
we’re not gonna we’re not gonna be drawn
into defensive battles did you want to
talk about that
yeah i my approach you know is is pretty
much the same yeah i mean well we got it
from you so yeah yeah yeah sorry about
that
i i just figure if god doesn’t defend me
i’m not worth defending you know
let him let him run my defense but
there there was a time several years
back um where there were some attacks in
the newspaper and i gave a one sunday
response yeah and it was because of how
how young believers can be affected that
that was a concern so i
i think it’s appropriate to give a
defense
uh but not to attack or retaliate or any
of that kind of stuff and to give
understanding because a lot of folks
aren’t attacking they’re just wondering
at some point and so it’s like helpful
to be able to say to them like listen
this is not a process that we do but it
does it does
gently it’s not holy but it irks me like
how would you think this and perpetuate
this myth
when it’s something i’m in the
environment regularly teaching and
living with these people and this is not
a practice that we
are participating in and that we we
teach or and certainly not with the in
the the connections that people have
made yeah so every once in a while just
be like i’m not going to talk about that
thing because it’s so dumb
like you know it’s almost like the
question have you stopped beating your
wife like if i actually say yes or no by
implication i’m guilty just from your
question so i’m not going to address
your question but over time that that
probably used to work before the
internet and and now every once while
somebody discovers an old video or an
old something rather like hey do you
guys like no
no we don’t so hopefully this
time of uh talking will help put that to
rest a little bit it it may it may in
part come out of the fact that i have
really felt strong from the lord that we
are to honor those who have gone before
us
and it’s a huge part of our culture you
know the we’re we’re
going to be building this revival uh uh
museum library house of generals where
we give honor to people who’ve gone
before us and some of them ended poorly
and uh but we’re we’re gonna try to
honor them anyway i mean the way the
scripture honors solomon he ended pretty
pretty poorly hezekiah is saying so
that’s the mandate and so i i’ve gone to
graves i’ve prayed but i don’t we don’t
talk to the dead we don’t try to get
something from the dead i mean that’s
but i will i’ll i’ll kneel a humble
myself before the lord i pray that
charles finney god we we need that kind
of an awakening in our nation again and
and i will go there and and i’m sure
that uh i i suppose some of the rumor
comes out of that that that we will
humble ourselves and
pray i’ve been i i remember in wales i
went to the the very not only evan
roberts grave but i went to the church
where the power of god hit him so
powerfully and i just i literally sat
where he sat
for i think maybe two hours i just sat
and just prayed i’m not talking to the
dead i’m not i’m not interested in
conversation with angels i you know when
you have the holy spirit why would you
want to talk to anyone else absolutely
and uh and so i’m just asking god do it
again just do it again so it’s a it’s a
huge topic and it would go all over but
you’ve just mentioned so there are
places of significance that are like a
touchstone for our faith
not just our faith but even other things
we care about like i’ve been at the
lincoln memorial and you’re like my
goodness the sacrifice of those men the
lost of lives the articulation of the
vision that he had and that’s great i
feel like wow
you i get in touch with my americanism
at some level my patriotism and so these
places like we’ve joked to the upper
room like in israel i don’t know if you
know this uh it’s not the real upper
room by the way that thing’s way under
the dirt at some point but
but you’ve been there i haven’t yeah and
you would say it’s a touchstone it is
and that that you’ve experienced the
lord’s presence oh yeah yeah we’ve had
mighty things happen yeah in that
environment and it may just be because
people have been going there for so many
years praying that you know there’s just
this
thing that happens there it doesn’t
matter to me how or what it is it’s just
they they stir up all kinds of memories
emotions scripture you you see what
happened in the original upper room and
how significant that was that uh it’s
just a place to really well it’s a
contact point for faith yeah the way you
put it i think it’s beautiful and to be
super clear sometimes a quote of yours
is attributed to this idea that we’re
actually going to graves looking for
anointings to be you know to to get and
to pass on
um there are anointings mantles
revelations and mysteries that have lain
unclaimed literally where they were left
because the generation that walked in
them never passed them on i believe it’s
impossible for us to recover realms of
anointing realms of insight sorry i
believe it’s possible for us to recover
realms of anointing uh realms of insight
realms of god that have been untended
for decades simply by choosing to
reclaim them and perpetuate them for
future generations
so at that point you’re talking about
in honor and faith
what i felt the lord speak to my heart
like 20 years ago when i first started
collecting for our library museum was
that if we honored the saints of the
past not worshiped not talked to for
sure
but if we honored them the lord would
give us access to their the grace that
they lived in you know there’s so many
things that previous generations
accomplished that are you know the
anointing on a spurgeon his his ability
uh wesley to preach to
whitfield that their anointings we need
again absolutely and uh and and
and so i feel like we have a role to
value and respect the person who said
yes to god
the spirit of god that marked them to
bring such change and so that’s what i
try to do is i try to honor
that element the spirit of god the
person who said yes
and it’s not it’s not worship it’s just
it’s the right thing to do and so that’s
what we do and so that’s why i feel you
know way back i think it’s 20 years ago
now where the lord i’ve really impressed
on my heart we need to do this library
museum
and and in some way just in life to
honor these people that have gone before
us because god will release into the
earth not all about bethel certainly not
all about me but release into the earth
again what he’s done in past in past
generations and that’s what i’m hungry
for yeah
it’s probably two things
you know the scriptures fold out
scripture is full of honoring the the
encounters these past saints have had
with the lord yes which are supposed to
inspire us
to have like encounters and like impact
in the earth and so i i think one thing
around that same time was i i had been
through seven years of higher learning
with um you know in in christian
community and had not heard hardly
anything about the healing revivalists
so i was a bit like where where were
these stories yeah in all the church
history that was covered yeah where were
these um these stories of of uh revival
that had signs and wonders and
manifestations anointing them like these
folks were lost from history mariah
woodworth etter i hadn’t heard anything
about john g lake i hadn’t heard
anything about so i’m i’m in seven years
of evangelical whom i love i’m an
evangelical kisses the uh you know
the
but but to have like wow we’ve been kind
of embarrassed or
or just didn’t care or choose to
remember
the radical sacrifice and impact and
power these folks moved in and for me
that was eye-opening so when i heard you
say that statement i’m like hey there’s
a there’s a forgotten move of the holy
spirit in power that is yes the church
is shy away from yeah exactly exactly
and we have a responsibility it’s a
responsibility of honor but it’s also a
responsibility to preserve the testimony
because that’s the spoken and or written
record of what god has done yeah which
prophesies his intent into this
generation and if we don’t steward the
testimony well the record of his nature
there are displays of his covenant with
people if we don’t steward that well
we’re not really prepared for what he
wants to do again and so they’re all
intertwined it’s our responsibility to
serve this generation well you know yeah
so when we hear those stories
it’s actually this is what’s possible in
the lord yes and that’s kind of what
we’re after exactly you know
as far as a touchstone i was at nyack
and i um college in new york and
happened you see a b simpson’s grave is
there so as we’re touring the campus it
was there and it was it was meaningful
to just be
uh again not to you know have some weird
like i mean there’s a special anointing
here but again to go this man was
mightily
used by the lord absolutely and uh was
you know he was empowering women in
ministry way before that time he was he
had uh racial unity was going on in his
ministry he was ministering to the poor
of new york doing a radically beautiful
work and being in his grave and also it
was connected to also some of the
martyrs uh that that that denomination
the cma has experienced as well and
feeling like there’s a weight and a
gravitas too wow
to these experiences again and we it’s a
disservice when we act like these aren’t
important or aren’t real but again so
for clear we’re not going to graves
sucking the anointing out of them but we
are not afraid of like uh of honoring
and revering what god’s done through the
saints in the past that’s right that’s
right
so being a non-uh charismatic and that
kind of coming and then there’s all this
risk happening and i i affectionately
at least i think i coined the phrase
spooky church because so many things
happened that were just spooky to me and
i i’d like go home and go oh lord what
are we doing i want to talk about all
those right now because we can talk
about those in other podcasts but i was
on a 10 or 12 year you know still am
like when i see something unusual happen
lord i’m like i try to like instead of
just judging it immediately go holy
spirit is that you how much of it is you
yeah what do i make of it and knowing
the response of my heart to that in the
moment is actually says a lot about how
i’m growing in the lord yeah you know in
that moment so this idea though um
whenever i was going to write about
grape sucking just like we don’t do this
leave us alone stop saying this i there
is a a story from a school of ministry
though that i do think it’s instructive
so i’ll i’ll unpack that and and i never
know like am i sharing too much and i’m
going to freak people out here more but
in our culture where we’re actually
experiencing the presence of the lord
and inviting people to to experience the
lord’s presence unusual things happen
things that actually are called god that
aren’t but it takes a while to figure
that out sometimes i would say that you
know the lord hit somebody and maybe
again i’m making up this percentage but
it’s ten percent god and ninety percent
the person but that’s ten percent more
of god than they ever had before so you
know you’re on this journey you know of
like i’ve just gotta i’ve gotta with the
community with our feedback with each
other
you know kind of walk these journeys of
risk so in the school ministry we had
one of our leaders had a profound
encounter with the lord
at the grave of a former church leader
so wow he comes back and gives a
testimony about this and because our
students are so hungry
i mean it’s like meat to a wolf at some
level like you’re kidding the lord will
meet you at a grave so it i remember in
that as the dean watching like whoa what
what but but i’ve had to learn over time
like if i try to kill something too
early
we totally miss the potentially the good
things and again the weird things that
come but when i kill everything too
early
our people our students top stop taking
risks
so that’s the number one thing that’s
huge you so when you if you’re like that
will embarrass us that that’s that’s
kind of dangerous that could go wrong
well let’s we won’t do anything
we have that about money like money’s
dangerous don’t stay near it you know
don’t do anything with money you know uh
leadership’s dangerous you know you can
do it wrong don’t be a leader i mean
like yeah
people if you just are quickly
constantly trying to keep us safe from
all mistakes yeah you will miss out on
amazing things the lord has so and and
one of the things you end up doing is
you end up killing the actual work that
god is doing absolutely i mean that’s
what jesus his warning with the wheat
and the tares he said don’t try to pull
the tares out because you will pull out
the wheat in other words it’s
unfortunate there’s terrors there but
there’s also wheat there
so let them grow into maturity and
you’ll be able to tell the difference
and that’s that’s part of the warning
that the lord gives us is that you know
if we try to keep everything squeaky
clean always because i do like
perfection i do like things organized
and accurate
but if i’m obsessive about that i’ll
actually hinder and and affect
negatively the work that god was doing
that 10 you make reference to yeah i
think it’s like i love being right i
think you do too but it’s like the
weirdest thing in the lord like you
can’t you have to lay down that love of
being right to like let people
experience this who god is
and what he’s up to i mean when you
think about the early church moving from
the old testament it’s like circumcision
is the heart it is the sign of the
covenant people and you know what eight
to ten years maybe 15 years afterwards
they’re like you know
to be a jesus follower you don’t have to
do that thing that’s in the old
testament so it’s this
incredible thing where they are risking
into
this foundational teaching the old
testament it it is morphed into baptism
there’s a new sign of the covenant
people that isn’t exclusive to men but
it goes is for women as well so
there’s this thing in the lord where he
is beckoning us further into his
presence and into his leadership and his
articulation so i’ve had to like not
panic
about what people will think yeah or
endure what people think and just go the
lord’s in this i gotta we don’t know how
at the end the result is what it’ll look
like but the lord’s in this i mean i’m
sure when the disciples heard jesus say
don’t worry she’s only sleeping they’re
like what
no jesus like what if oh my goodness so
anyway we’re on this journey so the
students hear this testimony and this is
well i tell i talk about this is a good
problem every pastor in america would
want this problem that we give a
testimony of god’s encounter and our
people
reflexively go i want that
i want more of that like
the lord’s over there i’m coming and so
this is a beautiful like like the grace
sucking is an unfortunate result of a
beautiful hunger
for the presence of god and again when
the critic labels it i’m like this is
actually a problem you’d want you’d want
your people so zealous for the lord’s
presence that you have to be cautious
about what you say because they will
move to it so i think we got guys like
ben fitzgerald who’s you know a
worldwide evangelist one of our guys
would love him to pieces he’s got a
amazing a video online about like he’s
just hungry he’s hungry and he’s like
i’ll do whatever it takes i’ll cross
oceans i’ll do whatever to experience
the presence of the lord and so that
thing is the heart that we’re building
now so this this idea of grave sucking
as a practice was so
it’s just like almost uh a weird demonic
assault against this beautiful hungry
heart yeah that it became i was even
just resentful but i’m not going to talk
about that
yeah i’m going to talk about it yeah
exactly
it’s nothing could misrepresent yes what
we
live and practice
in community accountable yep you know
nothing could could
even if it would have been mentioned by
one of our
team members it would have been in jest
it would have been you know no
i know where you’re going this but he
had this one team member had real
experiences i had a real incredible
experience that kind of helped light a
fire yeah but again once it got once it
kind of got traction i yeah the term
grave sucking because i’m a bit snarky i
was actually thought it was delightful
early on i went oh gosh if you’re going
to purposely misunderstand that much and
then i’m like well done sir but the
but over time you’re like okay in the
age of the internet and and as our
footprint got bigger you know when we’re
smaller it’s not as painful you know
like but but as our footprint gets
bigger and then people are like hey and
then they perpetuate lies um you’re like
oh that that does hurt
yeah yeah that’s tough it does so this
picture of your wife benny being laying
down on a grave and that is actually
like so when we say we don’t practice
this you’re like oh we have photographic
evidence of benny
laying on the grave what is she doing
what’s her story in that what’s what’s
up too you know our whole deal is we we
want to respond to god in a way that he
wants us to respond
if i kneel if i dance i’ve shouted i
dance before the lord i’ll
prostrate before the lord and it’s
that’s all it is is it’s we want to be
responsive enough to his impressions
that will do whatever he says to do
and
risk
looking like a fool in the process risk
being misunderstood in the process it
doesn’t uh you know there’s no you don’t
get bonus points for being ridiculed but
it’s it’s it’s just oh no if you’re
afraid of ridicule you’ll never do
anything great for god i mean yes any
any great leader in any
field has had opponents critics and
ridicule and mocking yeah i the
you know what the the when the holy
spirit hit
and in joy that it was praises and known
languages people went they’re drunk yeah
in the instant yeah yeah yeah
there are people who go oh that yeah
that they’re drunk so
you won’t do anything in god if you are
perpetually trying to please everybody
which is another part like i’m always
saying to them our team like the
internet’s always mad about something i
mean like i’m not gonna
i’m not gonna let them control our
agenda by what they’re mad about because
there’s a part of the internet that’s
just a machine of rage and frustration
and like it’ll never be satisfied so
that i don’t think either one of us
wants to speak to that that thing
because it’s unsatiable
but there are
fellow saints who are like i just need
to know yeah yeah
that you guys are safe and not
not super weird spooky but not super
weird yeah we’re willing to do whatever
we feel like you said to do i mean you
know honestly so that moment benny’s
responding to the leadership the the
prom things of the holy spirit in that
moment yeah it looks strange yeah you
know i i get it i’ve i’ve been in those
places too where my response was not
something i’d want
filmed but it’s yeah you know it’s
it’s uh some of the great evangelists
have described their prayer time behind
closed doors said well you know we
wouldn’t want that
film just their cry to god you know it
would look strange to the to the
outsider looking in of the tears the
weeping the whatever may be before the
lord
um you know they’re just they’re just
times where we respond intimately to him
and uh and it’s not always
it’s not always squeaky clean it’s just
honest and so we we create room and how
we do life that you know i might not get
it right i i may next week i asked and
they’ve done that
but that’s that is how we do life no
it’s so i remember around this time
people were like well there’s the
passage in ezekiel where the dead guy
was thrown in and they touched it’s not
in ezekiel sorry it’s about the prophet
yeah
yeah um where the bones touch the dead
bones of the prophet and then and so
even some in our team was like wondering
like hey is there something like hey no
no no like what
we’re not going there are we saying an
anointing is seeking through uh you know
concrete vault and up through like like
in that the dirt like no but i do
remember we’re wondering aloud and we
will do this we will wonder aloud
and then we will kind of go like whoa
what you’re not saying is this like oh
no i’m not saying that so yeah so we we
um i know as even in that season there
was some articulation that we had to
kind of go hey that that’s not what’s
happening whatever you think is
happening with a god encounter yeah it
ain’t that yeah and then we talk through
you know the implications of that and
and so
there’s a kind of a self-correcting that
we’ll do but we will noodle uh you know
and wonder and experience a while as
we’re pressing forward yeah thanks
that’s exactly right so that’s that’s
kind of how we think about it and people
have to realize what does they write us
what does bethel think about like well
there’s bill and the whole apostolic
team so even on our team we think some
different things sometimes absolutely we
talk to each other we probably have some
different ideas about the end times
about various things about the mechanism
how things work but that’s part of our
beauty is we don’t have giant group
think in some ways we will we will
listen to the other
people who are encountering the lord in
this and there’s other folks that have a
different maybe perspective on this i
know that um uh you know the catholics
have a uh have relics and have something
in their theology for relics and and the
the bones of the saints that wouldn’t be
something that would you know we are
participating in or interested in but
again we’re not trying to kill them over
that that would be like ah we prefer you
don’t we don’t
we don’t know that there’s a lot of um
there’s a lot in that for us
but we don’t need to separate from you
no that’s right you know because of this
and so there there are um there are
other groups that might have a different
perspective but this would be where we
land on this and hopefully it sets the
record straight and
it becomes the dominant hopefully the
truth of what we actually do becomes uh
the dominant uh articulation that’s out
there
one can wish one could wish