Apostolic Voices MasterClass (Part 3) – Bill Johnson & Michael Brodeur | Q&A

Bill Johnson sits down with Michael Brodeur from PastorsCoach.com for their Apostolic Voices MasterClass. This is part three of five, in which Michael and Bill discuss our need for the five-fold ministry, and how they work together.

i was saved into the jesus movement in

in the mid 70s and

i was part of a um a movement that

actually planted a church in san

francisco

it was the lighthouse ranch and they

planted 80 churches before they began to

subside

and that’s kind of the way that we

thought about uh the way we thought

about

the apostolic was it was mainly about

church planting

and that’s probably one dimension you

know how do you

see that like what what other dimensions

are there for you

and uh how much importance do you put on

the church planting side of things or

the missionary side of things

well it’s it does come down to the

meaning of the word

apostle it’s the sent one so it has to

be

central to what we think of as the

apostle but it’s more than a church

planter

yeah i mean i i do agree with that

concept

but it’s it’s church planting in the

sense of planting

groups of people into the earth that can

culturize bring transformation i mean

that’s

that would be a broader definition but i

do agree that

uh that the the whole concept of being

sent in planting

uh churches is is what is it’s what is

needed all over the world

it’s it’s uh it’s a healthy part and

it’s important it’s critical

yeah and it’s it’s interesting because

over my years i’ve gotten to

sort of spend time with probably i don’t

know maybe six or eight different

apostolic leaders of different flavors

and there are different flavors

and so if you were to kind of say well

what are the what are the three or four

things that would be common to all

because it’s not necessarily a builder

not necessarily a planter not ever

necessarily a pioneer

um obviously i think one of the things

i’ve seen with you is just that sense of

the supernatural being in touch with the

holy spirit other dimensions that you

see

um hope okay hope that’s good uh

healthy apostles always have hope always

always always have hope

and they also always have vision yes

they’re not waiting to be rescued

they’re wanting to build something yes

and that’s uh that’s at the core of who

they are

they’ve been called they’ve been they’ve

been called with an assignment

to build something that accurately and

adequately represents another world

that’s so good

and uh there’s a it’s like the the

apostolic heart

in mind same same with the prophetic

actually is there’s this perception of

if i could use the term heaven’s

blueprint on how things should work

yeah there’s just that perception

there’s that it’s not that they’re more

spiritual than

the evangelist it has nothing to do with

it has to do with

with where god put you to see and so the

apostle prophet have this

this position to see blueprints the

evangelist sees the hearts of men

see or the pastor you know you get the

point so it’s not

it’s not that one is greater than the

other it’s just the perception

or the the assignment they have

determines how they’re going to see

and so the whole apostolic prophetic is

uh is central in that sense because god

lets them see with burning conviction

the blueprints of heaven and there’s

always

there’s always hope there’s always

vision and there’s

always the um not a drive but a focus to

build

yeah building is huge that’s so good

yeah well it’s interesting because you

know when you look at the first great

awakening

you know you’ve got jonathan edwards you

have george whitefield

and then you have john wesley and

it’s interesting to look at you know

whitfield was seemed

obviously more anointed than wesley they

had a parting of ways at some point over

theology and

that got mended towards the end

but there are still churches today in

fact the methodist church just had

another

sort of let’s call it a reformation

around

some biblical issues and a whole new

life coming into the methodist church

talk about that aspect of the building

that aspect of the strategic that john

wesley had that seemed like george

whitefield didn’t have

no no you’re exactly right they both had

tremendous power in their preaching

which was interesting

uh for conversion for salvation but

wesley had this

motto organized to beat the devil

and that’s why his movement was called

methodist method

you know they they would they championed

methods or strategies

and and the lord used that brilliance to

create something that lasted longer than

his life lifetime and and that in

in a sense is what i don’t know that

it’d be fair for me to call

wesley an apostle and with phil an

evangelist i i don’t see it clear enough

to say that

but you can see that that uh that an

apostle is supposed to build something

that contains or sets uh parameters

boundaries for a movement

yeah and uh that that certain values are

never compromised certain values are

never compromised

and that we hold to these that these

things i call them cornerstones of

thought in our world

you know the whole god is good nothing’s

impossible

uh everything was dealt with at calvary

purchased at calvary and that every

person is significant

those are cornerstones of thought that

just should not be compromised and if we

can

discover what god is saying to us in our

lifetime

and then adhere to them then we will

it’s a weird illustration but it’s like

a foundation of a house

in the kingdom it attracts building

supplies

it’s it’s like you get it in place you

attract what

what uh what is uh goes into the actual

building

yes and i i’ve just watched it in the

kingdom for years when people get

certain things established in their

foundational beliefs on why they’re on

planet earth

when that’s there and they maintain that

sense of

worship and honor then they attract the

supplies

they attract the insights yeah no it’s

so good in fact you know one of my

favorite scriptures

as it pertains to the apostolic gifting

is

first corinthians chapter 3 where paul

describes himself as a master builder

he’s not the architect obviously the the

builder and maker is god

but he’s receiving the blueprint and

then he’s

gathering the right people the right

resources to actually bring it about

to make it happen interestingly too

that’s

that’s juxtaposed to chapter four

where he says you have many teachers you

don’t have any fathers

so the two aspects that i see in the

apostolic are the builder the

the father you know that that dynamic um

you know we live in a season right now

where the church is primarily built on

what i would call a pastoral foundation

you know ephesians 2 20 however says the

church is to be built on a foundation of

apostles and prophets

now some theologians would say well

that’s referring to the 12 apostles of

the lamb and that’s referring to

old testament prophets but in the very

next

few verses it says now these things are

being revealed

so there’s a very present reality that’s

being described in the book of ephesians

and obviously chapter 4 kind of

culminates and sort of puts it all

together

give us your thoughts on those passages

and how

you know the ephesians 4 passage works

in your understanding well

you’re absolutely right i mean that’s uh

there’s no question it’s it’s easy

to take the large promises and prophetic

decrees of scripture

and put them off into a period of time

for which we have no responsibility

it’s avoiding responsibility yeah and uh

and we have to own up to the fact that

that he said these gifts are given until

yes

this is an operation until this happens

what is it

unity of faith we’re not quite there be

at least another week

unity of faith to the knowledge of the

son of god that there’s going to be this

massive revelation

of the son of god and that we would come

to

the uh to a mature man that’s that’s the

one of the most extraordinary promises

in the bible

is that the body of christ would come

into a place of function

as a singular mature man in other words

christ

on earth again his body demonstrated

represented represented represented and

and those gifts are to equip unto that

and it happens through every person

functioning in their role

every one of us receiving grace from

these gifts

our lives are shaped by the grace we

receive from the prophet

from the evangelists i need these people

in my life regardless of my role

i need those people releasing

the grace that they carry into my life i

think better

when i’ve been with with the prophet i

see better

when when i’m hanging out with an

evangelist i

i get moved more with human need to

when i’m with that pastor the precision

of the teacher i need that

to need you know those are all gifts

still are important for me

and so what we do is we we release a

grace that enables the church to become

something

and uh and it’s it happens through

ministry it happens through ministries

these grace these gifts are given to

equip the saints for the work of

ministry

so the point is is that maturity is

marked by increased responsibility

god rewards he rewards all growth with

pruning

and all maturity with increased

responsibility

yeah because the wilderness didn’t

didn’t lead to the hawaiian islands

where you sit on a beach in a beach

house the rest of your life

it led to a promise line where they had

to go to work and that was maturity

and so in the kingdom the church

functioning as the church

is what models maturity wow and it’s

that maturity that brings us

into what he said should happen uh

that’s so good

i mean one of the challenges obviously

in the debate

of do these gifts still exist today you

know is the apostle and prophet still

relevant obviously most of the church

would say yes to

the pastor yes to the teacher and

in many cases yes to the evangelist but

one thing that i think is pretty clear

in the passage itself if we’re careful

and

we have to look at it as a whole passage

17 i mean 7 to

16 that each of these gifts was given at

the same time

they’re all distinct from one another

but they were given for the same purpose

so they’re given at the ascension of

christ which wasn’t the day of pentecost

it was several days before it was given

for the

you know the equipping of the saints for

the work of the ministry and then unto

what you were talking about that

maturity

and that responsibility that’s that

culminates in verse 16 where every

member’s doing its part

and the body grows and it builds itself

up in love

that that reality and and so again you

know to all of our friends who are

you know still trying to figure this out

you know it’s pretty clear to me

and just a simple treatment of that

passage but i think one of the

challenges that we’ve had is that we’ve

unfortunately put all the emphasis on

verse 11.

now it’s an important verse you know

when we name those five gifts and

they’re all aspects of christ they’re

all parts of who he is

but really it seems like the primary

verse in the whole passage is verse 12.

the equipping of the saints can you talk

about that like how does that work you

know

what you know obviously there’s

impartation there’s teaching there’s

training there’s

other dimensions to the equipping

dynamic

talk about that well each of those

giftings as you mentioned

represent an aspect of jesus himself his

life is ministry

and and what these gifts do let’s just

take profit

when a prophet ministers in his rightful

place

in the church his rightful voice his

rightful influence

the church sees better yeah they see

better

they see they function with the grace

of a prophet it doesn’t mean they are

prophets it just means that

grace enables them to function as the

prophetess

same with the evangelist the evangelist

in in that is to equip the saints so

it’s not just the guy who holds big

crusades

he actually his influence in the church

is to make god’s people evangelistic and

the same with the pastor to be able to

give

compassionate care over people in need

and the apostle that whole

blueprint concept for transformation

each of these gifts the teacher

that people would have a heart for the

study of scripture that they get that

from the teacher

it doesn’t mean they’re a five-fold gift

but but they can function in a

teaching communicative role to impart

understanding of scripture

yeah you know they talk with their

neighbor their neighbor they help to

disciple them

because they led them to christ they’re

in a teaching role it doesn’t mean

they’re necessarily

the one of the five-fold but they

operate under the

influence of the teacher that influences

them

and a lot of the reaction though is

because of

um you know people have used titles for

self-promotion

yeah and a lot of the reaction is just

they don’t like that

you know they don’t like you know the

the guy

you know flaunting himself uh you know

going to another city and i’m the

apostle i should be in charge of it well

that’s just dumb

that’s just dumb it’s all of this is

relational and it’s it’s all out of

servitude

it’s all out of the the compassion and

the desire

to see jesus exalted and people

strengthened

and if you don’t have those two things

you know go find something else to do

but giving yourself a title doesn’t make

it happen

and so a lot of the reaction is that so

if we can just get a generation that is

comfortable

uh with proper acknowledgement of

scripture but not use it for

self-promotion

use it just help helping us to

understand this is my assignment in

serving

and this is what i want to contend for

if we can if we can do that

we’ll get rid of a lot of the uh doubt

about

those being uh real today and most of uh

as you mentioned uh the church functions

around the concept of a pastor

it’s not evil it’s just incomplete you

know the pastor my goodness

we we need that tremendously but

but there’s a whole other aspect that

can help to make us even healthier

that’s so good