Bill Johnson sits down with Michael Brodeur from PastorsCoach.com for their Apostolic Voices MasterClass. This is part four of five, in which Michael and Bill discuss the relationship between apostles and prophets, and the importance of living generationally.
couple of other questions and along
those lines obviously
these two gifts apostle and prophet
were sort of paired together somehow in
ephesians 220
that there’s something uh you know a
little bit of a partnership
i i have this little phrase that i’ve
said sometimes that uh
you know a prophet without an apostle
will build a fantasy
an apostle without a prophet will build
a factory but the two together can build
a family
like there’s something about the the
dynamic
of that person who sees the blueprint
wants to build a the person who has sort
of an ear open to heaven and is
you know kind of interacting how do you
see those two gifts working together
because right now
i’m concerned that you know we have
apostles gathering over here prophets
gathering over here
the interface between them seems limited
and we had all the prophets that you
know spoke up during the election time
and that was odd and
you know there’s challenges there how do
you see those two
coming together and really being teamed
together
um well first of all it’s essential
and it is a relational issue and
what happens is you find people that
have discovered
the sobering call of god on their life
and they tend to want to protect that
and
there has to be a yielding for merging
because there is a complex you described
it very well the prophet and the apostle
what each of them bring to the table
that together they actually bring
a greater significance out of the other
when they are yoked together correctly
when it’s a relationship of honor then
they actually bring out the apostle
brings out
strength to the prophet that he’s not
going to get otherwise and the prophet
brings out a strength to the apostle
he’s not going to get otherwise you know
it’s
it’s like both are absolutely essential
and complementary
and so we’ve gotta we’ve got to fight
fight to protect the to protect the
relational component
because that’s you know it’s it’s again
our father it’s family
kingdom is family and so the apostle and
prophet
has to be the best model of that this is
how we deal with conflict this is how we
deal with uh you know conflicting ideas
or
or different perspective on our ministry
responsibility whatever it might be
this is we do this thing together and
uh and what’s more important to me let’s
say that you and i are the apos the
apostle prophet
what’s more important to me is our
connection and that we do this together
more than i accomplish all my wildest
dreams
you know i i believe in vision i believe
in the dreams but
it’s all meant to be done in the
relational context
moving at the speed of family
is you know something i’ve seen here you
know that in the decade i’ve been
a part of this church and seen what you
guys have built it’s just
so amazing to see even in moments of
disagreement or conflict how you guys
have covenanted
for outcomes that are relational
you know share a little bit about that
with us you know obviously
not too much detail but yeah well yeah
it’s it’s
it’s not complicated if you value people
more than ideas
if you value people then your
your default is going to be to protect
to protect what’s important if you value
your relationship
your default your your energy your focus
your prayer your
efforts are going to be focused on
protecting that relational component and
but if you’re just an idea person if
you’re just a person that
that that somehow has to always
there are people who are driven and
there are people who are focused driven
people get in trouble
as far as i’m concerned focus is what
we’re supposed to be
and if we can be focused then we make
sure that we bring all the elements that
jesus intended
into the vision and not leave them
behind so i can accomplish a vision
wow so i don’t know if that makes sense
no i mean it does to me
and well you know let’s expand that
let’s expand that a little bit because
you know you’re part of a gathering of
apostolic leaders that
you know called revival alliance and uh
many of them received sort of a a fresh
touch from the lord
at toronto in the first few years of
that outpouring
and um and yet you guys have kept a
friendship you’ve kept a relationship
you do
a lot of co-workership um talk about
that you know how does
how does that interface because you’re
not all identical i mean you all have
different
you know emphases and different points
of view and but you also
are carrying a certain set of common uh
values
how do you guys partner together how
does that work
oh it’s just the greatest privilege ever
you know
to to pour out for me to pour out who i
am
to benefit somebody else and their
ministry
their network of churches their leaders
their conferences whatever it might be
what a privilege to do what i can do to
make sure that they’re more successful
and they in turn have done the same for
me we
we considered a privilege to not form
one big organization out of the whole
group
yeah another denomination i i mean i
guess it could be fine but we’ve chosen
not to do that we instead we’ve chosen
let’s do what we can to help the other
person succeed
let’s just use our gifts and in the way
you know what i’m with randy many times
a year
so i want to do what is most helpful for
randy
i don’t have an agenda except to be a
strength to him
with john and carol with uh you know uh
heidi roland and heidi and george and
winnie you know chains
the whole group um that’s it i mean i
was just with jake up a weeks ago
i’m just there i’m just there to help
him
you know i just want to be a strength to
him that’s all and
and that that is the relational
component we do have
we we take time every year uh just to
rest together
we take a few days off just to go
somewhere and we hang out by the pool
and talk we pray for each other we
you know that’s what we do we go out to
dinner it’s pretty simple agenda
it’s just to make sure that each other’s
healthy and strong and and that’s what
friends do
yeah that’s probably unique in the
history of the church that there would
be this amazing
sort of uh group of friends that share a
sense
of a common encounter with with god
that’s true that you guys have kind of
touched the lord in a similar way
as one another but at the same time
you’ve now
been called to different kinds of
emphasis
and uh it’s really interesting to see
because actually you know during this
particular master class
you know we have you sharing and then
we’re going to have duncan and kate
smith and we’ll talk about this in a
moment
then john and carol are not and then
cheon will be sharing in the final week
and really trying to get those different
voices speaking
you know and uh but one of the things
that i wanted to
talk about is this issue of succession
yeah okay
and i know that um i mean i’m getting
older we’re all getting older
and uh there’s an emerging generation of
younger leaders that are rising up
and uh you know just what happened
within catch the fire recently
with the transfer of authority from john
and carol arnott
they’re still obviously emeritus leaders
of the whole movement but
no duncan and kate as younger leaders
have now taken the mantle and run with
that
talk about succession how do you see it
working how do you see it
what is and and particularly in
relationship to the concept of sustained
revival
because that’s one of the things you’ve
you’ve spoken about a lot and and how do
you see those two working together
um well absolutely necessary obviously
uh who was it uh someone in church
history i read i forgot who said it now
a
success without a successor is not
success at all and
and so that’s that that’s a huge thing
in my heart
um i was watching uh a documentary with
my wife my wife and i
don’t watch a lot of documentaries
together actually i was playing on my
ipad while she was watching
and uh when i turned the tv on is not to
learn anything it’s to be entertained
you know
so uh so i’m playing with my ipad she’s
sitting there watching this documentary
and this phrase
came off out of this documentary it was
about monarch butterflies
and this phrase came out that said a
multi-generational migration
and i stopped and i put my ipad down i
said what was that
we actually rebound we listened to the
same we watched it
multi-generational migration that the
monarch butterflies is like 200 million
of them in mexico
and they migrate to canada but it takes
four generations to get there
yeah and then it takes four generations
to get back and it hit me
that none of us are going to be able to
complete our assignment in our
generation
but we have to so put into the dna
of each following generation the sense
of purpose commission
the direction the intent of god
on the earth has to be instilled in the
hearts of a generation
and then relationally figure out how to
apply that but
that thing just really burned in me when
i heard it
and i knew that was the word i needed
for this this next season
that it’s not just you know my children
which they’re all in place
but it’s my grandchildren it’s their
children it’s this multi-generational
thing
that god is wanting to do something so
significant in the earth that not one
generation can see it happen
and so that means that we become we we
honor and ride out the momentum of a
previous generation
that’s right i i don’t i don’t honor my
dad for example my grandparents
i don’t honor them because i don’t honor
them by building monuments to what they
did
i honor them by going where they didn’t
have time to go
carrying the momentum they paid a prize
i honor them by going
where they didn’t have time to go and my
children the same grandchildren
yeah i think uh dutch sheets coined a
phrase the synergy of generations
and that’s kind of like the the last few
verses of
hebrews 11 you know talks about these
guys didn’t get it done
but they were looking forward and uh you
know i remember going to
uh florence and and touring this
amazing building called the duomo and uh
that it was
actually those who laid the foundations
were not there to see the completed dome
it’s like how does that happen you know
it’s like we’re such an instant society
it’s hard for us to
think of that but i was actually
thinking about
genesis you know chapter 1 verse 28
where
god is giving the prime directive to
adam and eve and the third
issue you know be fruitful multiply fill
the earth
you know there’s only one way of doing
that when you start with one couple
that’s through a thousand generations