Bill Johnson sits down with Michael Brodeur from PastorsCoach.com for their Apostolic Voices MasterClass. This is part one of five, in which Michael and Bill discuss the importance of apostolic ministry, where we see it in Scripture, and what it looks like today.
all right everybody well it’s so good to
have all of you joining us
we have a live studio audience here
today and we also have
uh facebook live as well and so if
you’re on
zoom and you want a little bit cleaner
sound go to facebook live and join us
there
but anyway i’m so excited about this day
i get to be with one of
the you know amazing leaders that’s been
such a mentor in my life
and has had such an impact in my life
but before i introduce bill
i just want to say this is the beginning
of a series that we are doing called
apostolic voices and this apostolic
voices master class is focused on trying
to help
the church to understand how to
integrate the different gifts of the
spirit
particularly the apostolic and prophetic
gifts into how we do church
in the in the real world and so we have
different speakers coming from different
perspectives
and as i begin though i’d like to just
give a little disclaimer because
our audience right now we probably have
about 300 people online
and let me just say that you know we
love the whole body of christ
but there are different perspectives
around the church
especially as it relates to the question
of the apostolic
and so you know first of all let me just
say clearly that
when we talk about apostolic we are
talking about the ephesians 4 gifting
but we’re not talking about
the replacements for the 12 apostles of
the lamb
that we uh affirm uh you know jesus’s
choice in that
the second thing we’re not talking about
is we’re not talking about anyone
writing new scripture
okay so please hear that clearly and
then the final issue that i really want
to make sure we underscore
is that there’s a lot of teaching about
the apostolic right now and some of it’s
very focused on
uh dominionism and obviously you know we
believe that jesus is going to come and
set up his kingdom
but you know we also believe that we are
to be salt and light
so that we’re not supposed to be the
dominating force in society we are
supposed to influence through our
servanthood through our love
and so again if we can clarify those
three things
i’d like to introduce bill johnson so
thank you bill for being with
us you know you need no introduction but
i just want to say that
i first met you about 15 years ago and
we moved up here after 33 years of
pastoring in san francisco
we moved up about 10 years ago and it’s
just been such an honor to be connected
to you and what god’s doing here so
you know as we begin i just like your
perspective what do you see
as apostolic ministry what does it mean
how how does it manifest in the local
church
just give us your thoughts as we get
started well um
the apostolic has several layers to it
one is
it’s uh a culturizing agent
it it really catches a perspective
of the reality of heaven how heaven
functions
the values of god’s world and what it
looks like to implement those here
so there’s the transformational role
there’s also the power
role they really helped to set a
standard
of power not just focused on
apostles doing all the stuff but
really training up raising people and
when you have the apostolic in place
there tends to be a greater dimension of
power
for miracles and for endurance uh both
both are essential parts of uh display
of god’s power
so tell us like you know looking through
history looking through scripture
what are some of the models that you see
that you know of apostolic ministry that
mean the most to you oh goodness well
of course in scripture the entire book
of acts you know
you can’t beat that um
a personal favorite uh a guy that you
hardly ever hear of
us a guy named hans nelson hoga in
norway
he was uh he was a revivalist a reformer
that was in prison for preaching
but he had this he had this unusual gift
as a revivalist of transforming culture
by starting businesses
and he was actually in prison one time
for preaching the gospel they pulled him
out of prison because the
the nation was in the health crisis
because of the lack of salt
and they knew he would know how to fix
that and so they brought him out of
prison he created a salt
factory and it really saved the nation
in many ways
and and then they put him back in prison
which is absolutely crazy but uh
but he was uh he was a culturizer in
that he would
he would go into a city or a village and
preach the gospel people would come to
christ
he would see the young people there that
needed a
purpose other than farming or whatever
it is that they may have been doing
previous and he’d start a business and
turn it over to them
so he it’s a most unusual gift but i but
i admire so much then of course the
reformers of
calvin and all those guys you know way
back in geneva back in those days
i admire all of that because they they
uh they were revivalists on one hand but
they also transformed the world therein
yeah that’s just those are my my
favorite stories
yeah now when we you know one of the
classic messages here is on earth as it
is in heaven
and that whole idea of kingdom come will
be done
um how does that intersect with the
apostolic role like how do you see those
that message and the apostolic function
kind of working together
well personally i think the entire what
we refer to as the lord’s prayer the
prayer that jesus taught in matthew 6
taught his disciples
that that really is an apostolic prayer
because the apostolic
role is to bring the reality of that
world into this one
and so that prayer is under
in my perspective is under the mandate
of apostolic
influence and so the the church prays it
prays the concepts in the prayer you
know your kingdom come your will be done
your kingdom king’s domain the reality
of your rule
the lordship of jesus let it become
manifest
in the in the specifics of everyday life
it may be in my health
it may be in my thinking it may be in
business it may be in family
but the point is is the reality of his
lordship
the reality of his rule as the
benevolent king that he is
becomes manifest realized and measurable
and that’s that’s the prayer and then
jesus of course taught the areas that
were important to pray for the provision
the whole issues of forgiveness and all
of that but it was all in the context of
transformation
that’s right well that’s such amazing
thought
so kind of getting down to the essence
of the gospel of the kingdom i’d like
you to just maybe take a few minutes and
unpack that for us like what is the
gospel of the kingdom
how do you know how do we see it
manifest in the life of jesus how do we
see it then carried on by the apostles
like what was actually being taught
there um
you know the nature of christ what he
did how he did it
and how he empowered us to continue his
ministry all those aspects give us some
thoughts
on that jesus
uh in in matthew 12 28 he said
if i cast a demon out of you by the
spirit of god
then the kingdom of god came upon you
yeah and so what he what he did there is
he described a condition
that got reversed and then he describes
how it happened
it’s because the reality of the kingdom
the present tense reality of god’s
dominion
came crashing into where the enemy once
ruled
that’s it it’s the conflict of kingdoms
and our role
is to give opportunity for the
extravagant one
which is the father to show up and do
what only he can do and that’s the heal
heal people’s bodies restore their minds
heal marriages
give set them on track to fulfill the
purpose of life whether it’s through
business or
education whatever it might be but the
whole point is is the kingdom of god is
very practical
and it has to be measurable we can’t
just pray
broad random prayers your kingdom come
and not be able to measure
because if if king if the kingdom comes
his lordship is realized and it’s going
to affect our relationship
it’s going to affect how we value each
other yes it’s going to affect the way i
treat my wife
my children my grandchildren it’s going
to affect the way i view
the course of history it’s going to
affect the way i look at infirmity
all those things are targets for his
sovereign rule
and he’s already told us what he wanted
he’s already said as it is in heaven so
that’s the mandate we live under but it
needs to be
it needs to be measurable you know where
you have that person
that’s been under torment matthew 12 28
a person that’s been
suffering under the torment of the enemy
that jesus comes along or
you come along in his name and pray for
him there’s freedom
and i just i just love the fact that
jesus described this is how it happened
darkness ruled light came darkness is
gone
and that’s the concept amen